The Village Voice thinks you're stupid

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Some(many?) American alt-weeklies still have writers go long, but none of those weeklies have the national exposure and reputation of the Voice. The Washington City Paper doesn't put its arts features online because they want people to pick up the weekly and theoretically read the ads...

To bring Simon Reynolds into this(Oh No! not again!) I see he's been raving on his blog about all the blogs he reads, and how he doesn't have time to read music features in newspapers and magazines (even if he could find music magazines he'd like)...

Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:40 (twenty years ago) link

This thread (and I admit, I haven't read all of it - far too many words!) seems to use review/criticism pretty much interchangeably. Surely, a review is just descriptive, often a buyer's guide, that tells you what something sounds like. Criticism should make you listen to something with new ears, even if you've already heard it a million times. Falling word-counts mean criticism disappearing and in the UK this has been a commercial disaster (all the music papers shutting) as well as an 'artistic/intellectual/whatever' one. I hear the Observer are going to start a Music Monthly (to go with their Sport and Food ones) though, which might be interesting. Other than that it's 'The Wire' or the blogs. (Write for free, Frank!)
ps I went to college with the Nina Caplan, who writes the film reviews for Metro, which for a Daily Mail owned free rag, are excellent, if short.

Jamie Smith, Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:55 (twenty years ago) link

(TS: Metro vs The Village Voice).

David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:19 (twenty years ago) link

writing for free has distinctly lost it's tang since i started writing for peanuts.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:33 (twenty years ago) link

With Frank Kogan, more is more, and truncating me is never a good idea.

Jaw
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drops.

mei (mei), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:32 (twenty years ago) link

what about writing for 'tang strongo?

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 7 August 2003 18:34 (twenty years ago) link

I don't see the logic in "Most long pieces aren't good, therefore there shouldn't be long pieces." Most short pieces aren't good either. Most pieces aren't good. Solution: Write better pieces. (But do readers want good pieces?)

The point is: Different subjects need different treatment; different writers work better using different forms; different people have different skills. If an entire profession shifts to a single format and a single writing style, then most subjects won't get treated, or they'll get treated badly; most writers won't get used, or they'll get used badly.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:43 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, but thanks to the net people can pretty much do what ever they want formatwise. You might not get paid for it, but being paid to write about pop music is a privilege, not a right (plus I'll probably become a librarian eventually anyway so forgive me if I feel a bit solipsistic about it).

I think most albums only deserve about 250 (if that, if anything I want to see more GOOD pithy three sentence reviews - I like jokes - than GOOD epic reviews - you're either gonna sell me on this album in 1000 words or you're not gonna sell me on it) words anyway, and at least this year I'm a big fan of brevity. So while it's sad that a good mag is creating more rules about what it's capable of, I can't really get too hung up about this. If you're not satisfied with saying only A THOUSAND WORDS about an album, write a book about them on the web! That's first place anybody looking for a million words about your fave cult artist is gonna go.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 19:58 (twenty years ago) link

No one said they had a "right" to anything, Anthony.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:02 (twenty years ago) link

miccio in quoting every anti-labor argument ever shocker

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:03 (twenty years ago) link

Please read ARTHUR. And contribute if you like. Our reviewers (Byron Coley & Thurston Moore, Paul Cullum, etc.) get to write as much as they want, on whatever they want. We started this mag a year ago EXACTLY because of this kind of stuff that the Voice is doing now...

If you don't know what I'm yammering about --

http://www.arthurmag.com


Jay Babcock, Editor

Jay Babcock, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:06 (twenty years ago) link

And if you don't like that, Blount, go to RUSSIA! (or ARTHUR, see?)

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:08 (twenty years ago) link

TS: Death Rock 2000, The Disco Tex Essay vs 3 sentence pithy review.

David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:11 (twenty years ago) link

People do have mutually-understood expectations, which if undermined cavalierly and often enough by management occasionally demand to become rights under law. But we're not at that point yet here, we're just talking about what's going to make a better mag?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:12 (twenty years ago) link

obviously, the point is not the length of a piece of writing but the ideas it contains. I mean, how basic is this? Too many damn stylists, not enough thinkers. You bet your sweet ass I'm looking forward to Matos' book about Sign of the Times a gazillion times more than I am the next 250 word review about whatever album by whatever crappy writer.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:12 (twenty years ago) link

but none of the people who are gonna get hit by village voice dumbdown jamboree 2003 (xgau, giddins, hoberman, kogan) are 'too much stylists, not enough thinkers', plus even genuine stylists (meltzer)(sinker's somewhere in both groups) work better in marathons than sprints (vinyl reckoning vs. rhymes with seltzer)

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:16 (twenty years ago) link

And if a writer isn't worth reading at 1,500 words, he's probably not worth reading at 300.

As I recall, Einstein's Theory of Relativity was more than 300 words. So was Austen's Pride and Prejudice. If writers are essentially forbidden to publish their ideas, then their ideas will never get any good, no one will have the opportunity to see or respond to anyone else's ideas, or to elaborate on them, the readers will never get confronted with new ideas, thought will wither.

Right, Anthony: Pasteur didn't have the right to do immunology, either; Wittgenstein didn't have the right to teach philosophy. But if they'd been prevented from doing so, the world would have lost something. And if people like me don't get paid to do what we do best, then it's not going to get done, blogs or no blogs, ILX or no ILX.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:17 (twenty years ago) link

Kogan is a total stylist.

Frank, TS: Visions of Johanna vs Tarantula vs "if a writer isn't worth reading at 1,500 words, he's probably not worth reading at 300."

David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:19 (twenty years ago) link

(Sorry, I'm having trouble formulating responses in forms other than TSs).

David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:20 (twenty years ago) link

Actually, one of my best reviews ever (of "What Becomes of the Broken-Hearted?") was six words long.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:21 (twenty years ago) link

how long were the liner notes to world gone wrong?

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:21 (twenty years ago) link

I can think of maybe two writers (maaaaybe) who work better in the blogosphere than they do via an editor, an impersonal readership, a paycheck.

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:24 (twenty years ago) link

Why not do a 'word strike'? Everybody turning in insanely long submissions. Even the food critics including recipes of everything on the menu, whatever it takes.

dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:24 (twenty years ago) link

Actually, the question is this: Taking Sides, world with Shakespeare's sonnets and King Lear vs. world with only the sonnets.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:25 (twenty years ago) link

dave: chuck is going to kill you

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:25 (twenty years ago) link

you'll find I have a different stance laborwise re: rock critics than I do with say, school teachers.

The only critics who comes to mind whose work I really, really enjoy in lengthy form are Pauline Kael and Robert Christgau. But Xgau's usually good with whatever space you give him (and when he's off, he can be bad with whatever space you give him). And Kael was, wowsers, PROFITABLE enough for her mag (she DREW young people to the New Yorker) that they gave her a lot of freedom. And xgau's got a webpage and has shown a willingness to embellish in hindsight (see "Grown Up All Wrong"), so he can certainly slap those extra paragraphs on elsewhere.

I love this assumption that shorter equals dumber. And since I thought Kogan's recent E6 reviews was kinda wack after the first two paragraphs and since I'm not sold on this idea that Meltzer needs to run free (I'm not a fan of people who self-nullify in the face of constraint, unless they do it entertainingly like Marlon Brando does. Meltzer doesn't), I simply do not share it.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:27 (twenty years ago) link

Wittgenstein/Einstein/Shakespeare parallels are stretching it just a tad...

I think this only really hurts the music section. For pretty much every other kind of criticism or feature writing, there are other venues where you can go long.

Also, I wouldn't really call the Voice one of the few publications that thinks gaining your interest means ruffling your feathers. I'm glad it's around to do what it does, but it's preaching to the choir.

alias, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:30 (twenty years ago) link

Frank Kogan is the Louis Pasteur of critics.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:33 (twenty years ago) link

I think long-form music criticism is more interesting to read, perhaps because it is relatively rare, and consequently hasn't become so calcified by convention. In short reviews, it's too easy for a writer to toss out a few gonzo metaphors and a couple of trendy band references and be done with it. It's rare to find a short blurb these days that does anything interesting with the form (perhaps some of Christgau's Consumer Guide pieces qualify). On the other hand, there is a glut of rote exercises in blurbage in just about every music publication in existence. A longer format forces writers to have a point beyond "This is good" or "This sucks". It also allows for different types of pieces beyond the basic review - for example, someone could write a history of a genre, or a comparison of different styles, or of different groups - it's hard to do this in a space-constrained format.

o. nate (onate), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:34 (twenty years ago) link

My best pieces ever were in my fanzine without anyone (else) editing me (Rog. Williams 'n' What Thing, New York Dolls, Disco Tex), but I made sure that other people looked at them before I published, and they'd have been better still if I could have hired Eddy or Simmons to do a line-edit on them. (And my fanzine writing was better for the experience I had doing professional writing.)

Sheffield's best stuff was in the fanzines. The best that I saw of Jane Dark's was in the fanzines (though there's probably lots elsewhere that I haven't seen). I think even Chuck was at his best in the fanzines. Sinker's better online than he was in The Wire. I've not even seen Dave Q or Ally Kearney in the commercial prints. That tells you something right there.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:37 (twenty years ago) link

That I'm a lazy, good-for-nothing sack of shit! Editors can't take the blame for that one!

dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:39 (twenty years ago) link

Anthony, who the heck said "shorter = dumber"? I said dumb = dumber.

It's funny to talk about length because lately I've been thinking about picking up Benjamin's "Arcades Project" (trying hard to be a pretentious aesthete here, ppl!), so last night I searched ILX for references to it (because I trust the good people around here a heckuva lot more than the Amazon reviews or whatever) and uncovered this great thread.

uh, totally unrelated to the current discussion. But I wanted to link to that good thread. For anyone who's been bored with ILM lately or whatever.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:40 (twenty years ago) link

well, maybe that thread wasn't great great, but it seemed like it could have been longer or something and it kind of died..

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:42 (twenty years ago) link

And I'm going to keep reiterating this point until it gets through: The question isn't whether in your experience 300-word pieces in general are better than long pieces in general, it's whether we should ABSOLUTELY, IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, prevent people from getting paid to write long pieces. If you say yes, you are stupid, unbelievably stupid, so stupid that you need people to mop up after you when you go out on the street.

Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:43 (twenty years ago) link

my best pieces are really REALLY short (= "in code" acc.miccio on aim recently, but this argt had not yet come up so i will allow him graceful space to change his position accordingly)

the payment structure wd be complex, but i am willing to work for the voice at this length

(eg i get to insert a hilarious demolishing/rewiring one-liner — one-worder sometimes — when and where i choose in anyone else's work)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:43 (twenty years ago) link

That thread's not bad. I like how Geir came in and made his typical Geirish comment and for once everyone ignored him.

o. nate (onate), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:46 (twenty years ago) link

miccio: kael didn't get any more freedom lengthwise than anyone else under shawn

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:46 (twenty years ago) link

I think there is also a crucial difference in terms of effort required between a zine and a blog.

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link

also she had to switch-hit with someone else for years who was no good (actually since i forget who it was this may be unfair)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link

i was at my best in my junior high diary.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link

i know, i plan to post it all on radio free narnia at the weekend

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:51 (twenty years ago) link

ha ha maybe this will be the year i get off my ass and finish my ZINE

also it would help if some of the people who said they were gonna fucking contribute WOULD

(only contributor thus far: kogan.)

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:52 (twenty years ago) link

(old-ilm in sitting on its hands shocker)

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:54 (twenty years ago) link

I already said in my first post I think it's sad that the Voice is creating RULES about what it can't and can publish. However, I will lose no sleep over it and am not worried that rock criticism will lose some great thinkers (all the people mentioned aside from Jane Dark, I've read in BOOKS so they don't really strike me as being lost talents).

btw, what zines did Sheffield write for? I'm a big fan of his SPIN Alternative Guide entries, and would love to find some allegedly better material. I know about Radio On, but are their others?

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:54 (twenty years ago) link

actually i wz talking abt this to someone last night — prob.jerry the nipper — how the nme's great blunder-loss was to allow angus mackinnon to walk early 80s, cz he was just the best editor (commissioning/line-editing) in the uk/world at that time

it's that invisible contribution which is being wiped out of publishing, in books and magazines and whatever: writing is better for being collective, like and (in fact) everything else

(JtN had noted that, whatever else you think of it, the new paul morley book is the worst PROOFED book he'd seen recently)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:57 (twenty years ago) link

(actually fuck all them old hands: if anyone wants to contribute to this thing, get in touch. there was a vague theme but i forget what it was. kogan's piece is too good to go unpublished.)

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:58 (twenty years ago) link

haha angus wd have spotted that an important word wz missing from that sentence, for example

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:00 (twenty years ago) link

To answer Mr. Diamond's earlier question, Blount (can I still call you that, James? or should I write NOONNO?) referred to the current situation as this the village voice dumbdown jamboree 2003. Plus there's the thread title.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:02 (twenty years ago) link

code it is then! yay!!

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:04 (twenty years ago) link

anthony if you really haven't figured out 'we gotta go shorter to reach younger readers' isn't code for 'we gotta dumb it down' you haven't been paying attention to the wacky world of music journalism over the past 5 (15? 50?) years

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:06 (twenty years ago) link

ah, fuck
i liked Hilary.

ulysses, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 17:49 (eight years ago) link

x-post - yep now I see it. She tweeted Feb. 17th that it was her last day at the Voice.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 6 April 2016 16:18 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...
one year passes...

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