Oh fuck, just realized you said new yorker, not NYMag. Nm. There was a NYMag profile of the head of St. Ann's who also seems out there and mildly cultish.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 January 2014 16:17 (ten years ago) link
Will read. I definitely think there is some common thread in these types -- they create an "insider" and "outsider" mentality, i.e. the people who are in our group are wise and the people outside are stupid. There is the potential for extreme praise combined with the threat of extreme criticism -- if you do things right it will prove that you are brilliant beyond imagination, but if you do things wrong you will face wrath. There's a method or system -- things should be read/learned in this particular way only, other ways are insufficient or stupid. There's always an enemy and a common cause.
Sometimes these figures get simplistically dismissed as "abusive" but I think this ignores the other half of the dynamic, namely that many people are attracted to this kind of a strong, dictatorial figure and WANT to take part in this sort of personality cult. This is what I meant about how even after the shine came off I still took part in it, even though I did so with more self-awareness. Because there's an intensity and thrill to having that kind of experience that's hard to duplicate. I think Wright's book recognizes this.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 January 2014 16:22 (ten years ago) link
I'm only 60 pages in but damn, this book
― Ayn Rand Akbar (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 28 January 2014 16:23 (ten years ago) link
hurting you really need to read that horace mann piece, it speaks directly to that
― socki (s1ocki), Tuesday, 28 January 2014 16:27 (ten years ago) link
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/04/01/130401fa_fact_fisher
btw in googling for that horace mann piece, i came across a Cracked listicle thing that alerted me to the existence of the Delphian School
does it get mentioned in the book (which i've just started)?
― gbx, Tuesday, 28 January 2014 16:43 (ten years ago) link
fwiw in the case of my professor, I never felt truly "threatened" by him although I had some awe of him. I had a bit of a thick skin when it came to his sharp comments and never really felt hurt by them, taking them as a reflection of my failure to do work as hard as I should have rather than on me as a person. The people who disliked him seemed to also take him very personally.
An obvious difference between the prof and Hubbard is that my prof's literary methods ultimately had reason to them and made sense, whereas Hubbard was just making everything up as he went along.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 January 2014 17:03 (ten years ago) link
yeah the book's closing was pretty good in the way it place scientology in with the whole history of new religious movements
― |$̲̅(̲̅ιοο̲̅)̲̅$̲̅| (gr8080), Friday, January 24, 2014 3:22 PM (4 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
otm, i also like the nailing tom cruise to the wall part:
"Scientology orients itself toward celebrity, and by doing so, the church awards famousness a spiritual value. People who seek fame—especially in the entertainment industry—naturally gravitate to Hollywood, where Scientology is waiting for them, validating their ambition and promising recruits a way in. The church has pursued a marketing strategy that relies heavily on endorsements by celebrities, who actively promote the religion. They speak of the positive role that Scientology has played in their lives. When David Miscavige awarded Tom Cruise the Freedom Medal of Valor in 2004, he praised his effectiveness as a spokesperson, saying, “Across ninety nations, five thousand people hear his word of Scientology every hour.” It is difficult to know how such a figure was derived, but according to Miscavige, “Every minute of every hour someone reaches for LRH technology, simply because they know Tom Cruise is a Scientologist.” Probably no other member of the church derives as much material benefit from his religion as Cruise does, and consequently none bears a greater moral responsibility for the indignities inflicted on members of the Sea Org, sometimes directly because of his membership. Excepting Paul Haggis, no prominent Hollywood Scientologist has spoken out publicly against the widespread allegations of physical abuse, involuntary confinement, and forced servitude within the church’s clergy, although many such figures have quietly walked away."
― slam dunk, Tuesday, 28 January 2014 17:53 (ten years ago) link
Also from the book, it had totally passed by me - or just not stuck - that Greta Van Susteren is a major, senior CoS member.
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 28 January 2014 21:21 (ten years ago) link
whoa, for real?
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 28 January 2014 21:22 (ten years ago) link
This article from Harpers about a guy who infiltrates cults doesn't talk about Scientology but it's really good and apropos to thread:
http://harpers.org/archive/2013/11/the-man-who-saves-you-from-yourself/
― ryan, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 01:58 (ten years ago) link
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/David-Sullivan-PI-who-infiltrated-cults-dies-4924222.phphttp://harpers.org/blog/2013/10/remembering-david-sullivan/
― Mordy , Wednesday, 29 January 2014 03:44 (ten years ago) link
oh shit I missed all that. sad to miss out on those memoirs.
― ryan, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 04:01 (ten years ago) link
Buying Going Clr thanks to this thread, looking fwd to reading it.
― the Bronski Review (Trayce), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 04:19 (ten years ago) link
Going Clear has been enlightening in that my evaluation of Hubbard has shifted from simple conman to genuine psycho
― Ayn Rand Akbar (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 22:05 (ten years ago) link
In a way I think all elaborate cons require at least some delusion on the part of the con man. Even ponzi schemers often start off with an investment scheme they think might work, then convince themselves "well, I'll just take money from these accounts until I find a way to pay it back."
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 22:17 (ten years ago) link
Maybe not "all" but many. And I think starting an entire religion is such an enormous endeavor that it takes a certain amount of madness. It's not the kind of thing you can just do with cold rational calculation, I think.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 22:18 (ten years ago) link
sure, but really it's all the body horror/misogyny/sexual hysteria stuff that = psycho imo.
― Ayn Rand Akbar (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 23:06 (ten years ago) link
― Ayn Rand Akbar (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, January 29, 2014 4:05 PM (57 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
ditto
― gbx, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 23:09 (ten years ago) link
yeah true, Hubbard was another level of crazy, not just self-deluded
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 23:15 (ten years ago) link
one of the most interesting parts of going clear was the description of how dianetics evolved into scientology. basically, that hubbard didn't have control over the dianetics centers, and he didn't have a reason to keep people coming back after they were clear. it makes the whole 'starting a religion' thing seem like the natural next step, both from an ego standpoint as well as a commercial one.
― eh mec, elle est ou ma caisse? (ytth), Thursday, 30 January 2014 07:37 (ten years ago) link
ya i have no doubt that many of history's great con artists were either totally insane and/or suddenly found themselves in way over their head and made things much, much worse (jim jones)
― socki (s1ocki), Thursday, 30 January 2014 14:54 (ten years ago) link
Well, the genius development in the CoS is either overtly blackmailing members to comply using information gleaned from their audits or the threat of back-billing in the six-figures, or simply separating purportedly problem members from their friends and family and locking them in trailers in the desert. But especially the first part. Imagine if priests used information from confessions to coerce people into doing crazy shit? Or hell, pressuring them to tithe more or whatever?
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 30 January 2014 16:05 (ten years ago) link
I was impressed/shocked at how elaborate and devious their blackmail attempts are. The plot to take down Paula Cooper e.g.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Thursday, 30 January 2014 16:10 (ten years ago) link
if only Hubbard had managed to take over Rhodesia lol
― Ayn Rand Akbar (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 30 January 2014 16:14 (ten years ago) link
Imagine if priests used information from confessions to coerce people into doing crazy shit? Or hell, pressuring them to tithe more or whatever?
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, January 30, 2014 11:05 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i'm under the impression that quite a few priests did a whole worse than that
― socki (s1ocki), Thursday, 30 January 2014 16:17 (ten years ago) link
Hubbard was his own special brand of sexual predator
― Ayn Rand Akbar (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 30 January 2014 16:26 (ten years ago) link
so has Wright's dog been murdered yet or anything? my wife was inquiring how he could get away with writing this book... I'm not finished with it yet, and I'm under the impression that the Church's ability to counteract critics is heavily diminished from previous decades but I didn't really have a good answer.
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 30 January 2014 18:59 (ten years ago) link
when you come at the king you best not miss (basically he did not miss)
― |$̲̅(̲̅ιοο̲̅)̲̅$̲̅| (gr8080), Thursday, 30 January 2014 19:10 (ten years ago) link
xpost I noted above the thoroughness of the vetting, which Wright even writes about. In order for the CoS to come at him legally, they'd have to open themselves up to further scrutiny. As for threats, dude's last book was about Al Qaeda.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 30 January 2014 19:18 (ten years ago) link
and look what happened to them
― socki (s1ocki), Thursday, 30 January 2014 22:19 (ten years ago) link
they moved around between countries like LRH, iirc
― mh, Thursday, 30 January 2014 22:34 (ten years ago) link
this gets a little less insane/entertaining after Hubbard ascends to OT X status or whatever. Miscavige's psychosis not as compelling.
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 31 January 2014 16:47 (ten years ago) link
it's more standard issue, but i do recommend watching this interview with him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZSjVOXAb8U(55 min, but worth it bc he is such a reptile)
― mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Friday, 31 January 2014 17:05 (ten years ago) link
http://s.mcstatic.com/thumb/5802946/16849657/4/flash_player/0/1/the_sopranos_god_created_dinosaurs.jpgfor some reason when reading this my mental image of Miscavige is actually the dude on the right
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 31 January 2014 17:09 (ten years ago) link
I'm just getting into the Miscavige stuff but he seems more coldly cynical than Hubbard.
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 January 2014 17:13 (ten years ago) link
yeah, he seems closer to garden variety power-hungry sadist than the weird mixture that Hubbard was
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 31 January 2014 17:13 (ten years ago) link
Hubbard had the dual edge thing where he kind of knew he was doing phony stuff but he believed in his own grandeur
The new regime just seems to believe in power
― mh, Friday, 31 January 2014 17:15 (ten years ago) link
Shakey otm, in other words
― mh, Friday, 31 January 2014 17:16 (ten years ago) link
watch the interview -- he is really really really creepy and it added to my appreciation of the sea org horror etc. i sent that clip to my mom when she was recovering from hip surgery and she said it totally give her the creeps/she loved ithe's not the person you want in control of your fate
― mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Friday, 31 January 2014 17:18 (ten years ago) link
he's a reptile imo
― mh, Friday, 31 January 2014 17:19 (ten years ago) link
I just read this morning about the dude who they forced to walk around a pole in the desert for 12 hours a day until his teeth fell out? What in the living fuck?!
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Friday, 31 January 2014 17:20 (ten years ago) link
all these people who were born in to COS and are now running it are just terrifying and/or heartbreaking
― |$̲̅(̲̅ιοο̲̅)̲̅$̲̅| (gr8080), Friday, 31 January 2014 17:25 (ten years ago) link
this mission just opened several blocks away from our place.
http://mb.cision.com/Public/813/9457275/9636b5739b8dafde_800x800ar.jpg
There was this really pleasant woman who would always stop and talk to my kid and I whenever she saw us walking in the neighborhood who I came to realize worked at this mission and i think was in charge of childcare classes of some kind. maybe they were trying to recruit him?
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 31 January 2014 17:35 (ten years ago) link
they're always trying to recruit everybody
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 31 January 2014 17:38 (ten years ago) link
So apparently this ran during the Super Bowl? I turned it off after halftime so IDK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k0JEc0arOQ
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 3 February 2014 16:47 (ten years ago) link
finished Going Clear - interesting that it deals frankly with the gay rumors about Travolta, but not Cruise...?
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 3 February 2014 17:13 (ten years ago) link
i just picked up a CD copy of van morrison's "inarticulate speech of the heart" (1983) and on the liner notes he thanks L Ron Hubbard!
― everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 3 February 2014 19:52 (ten years ago) link
it used to be rumoured that van always played the dominion theatre on tottenham court road because it was v. close to the london scientology centre
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 3 February 2014 19:56 (ten years ago) link
Felt kind of grossed out by Chick Corea and Stanley Clarke for going to that rally in Portland to overturn the jury verdict
― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, 3 February 2014 19:57 (ten years ago) link