Stairway To Heaven

I'll be amazed if he wins this. You can't copyright a chord progression (or a chromatic ground bass). My guess is that it's a bid for publicity.

Is it the chord progression that Spirit is arguing Page ripped off, or the melody of the opening (fingerpicked) section?

My guess is that it's a bid for publicity.

Or to pay his mortgage.

Is it the chord progression that Spirit is arguing Page ripped off, or the melody of the opening (fingerpicked) section?

I don't see a very strong case for the latter. If anything, Page added a melody line to what is a bunch of arpeggios over a chromatically descending 'ground bass' figure in the Spirit song.

From a purely aural standpoint, it sounds like the same notes in the same sequence in the same key, and even at the same tempo -- in other words, the composition. Page obviously only used a few seconds of it, and just as a springboard to something huge. But it's still there.

("the composition" meaning "Taurus")

My guess is that it's a bid for publicity.

Or to pay his mortgage.

― Johnny Fever, Tuesday, May 20, 2014 10:06 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's his estate, the guy is dead iirc

Stairway is a lot more than just the bit from Taurus ( the descending chromatic figure). It's the lyric, the gradual increase in tempo, the mellotron arrangement, the solo, the crescendo, and so on.

― calstars, Monday, May 19, 2014 10:37 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Too bad Taurus is completely unmemorable then

From a purely aural standpoint, it sounds like the same notes in the same sequence in the same key, and even at the same tempo -- in other words, the composition. Page obviously only used a few seconds of it, and just as a springboard to something huge. But it's still there.

Applying a standard picking pattern to a chord progression is not generally seen as writing a top-level melody line, which is usually what determines writing credits (along with lyrics). It's the same reason Stewart Copeland won't get a writing credit for "Every Breath You Take".

The line in "Taurus" starts A-C-E-C --G#-C-E-C--G-C-E-C iirc.
"Stairway begins A-C-E-(A*)--(B*)/G#-E-C-(B*)--(C*)/G-E-C-C* where * indicates notes in the higher octave and slashes indicate notes that are played at the same time. Brackets indicate the melody line that Page added.

I'm not denying that Page was probably influenced by Spirit, btw, just saying that I don't think there's much of a case for songwriting credit here.

Didn't click on the link yesterday, so I didn't realize the Spirit story was new--even showed up on the news on the way home. Twelve Dreams being one of my key high-school albums, I found it quite funny hearing Spirit show up on the news in 2014.

They played the two back-to-back. They didn't sound at all similar to me. I'm not a musician.

Im not a musician but it sounds like a total rip-off to me. Tarfumes OTM.

Stairway is a lot more than just the bit from Taurus ( the descending chromatic figure). It's the lyric, the gradual increase in tempo, the mellotron arrangement, the solo, the crescendo, and so on.

― calstars, Monday, May 19, 2014 10:37 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Too bad Taurus is completely unmemorable then

― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:14 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Right, like this disqualifies you from asserting a copyright claim. Try again Wapner.

"total"

I just realized that I was misreading calstars post and what I said was not really responding to him.

Bill, I'm a musician and a lawyer btw. And ultimately these things are up to juries, if they get that far, and juries are unpredictable. They might agree it's a "total rip-off" and they might not. I really don't give a fuck though, they made it a hot line, Zep made it a hot song imo.

I've discovered that comparing songs on a car radio is not a good test. Looked up "Taurus" on YouTube, found the part in question, and yes, the similarity is obvious.

People steal little bits all the time, no? No idea if there's a legal claim there or not. If somebody was going to take action, I find it bizarre that they'd wait until now.

It does seem strange that they waited this long, but it's possible that they only regained control of their own copyrights recently or something like that. OTOH, it's possible that they saw the success of other recent settlements against Zep and/or found themselves hurting for money.

Since New Order had to pay John Denver for Run (I still can't here the similarities), Zeppelin had better be forced to pay an enormous amount for this.

Bill, I'm a musician and a lawyer btw. And ultimately these things are up to juries, if they get that far, and juries are unpredictable. They might agree it's a "total rip-off" and they might not.

This I do believe.

"Try again Wapner."

^^using this

Where is "The Wapner of Wien" when you need him?

Wapnerian

Hey Bill, here's a clip of your favorite drummer discussing "the Master" (5:51)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKXJPUoyn_g

And don't despair—it will click for you one day. It took me thirty years to "get" Matisse!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKXJPUoyn_g

Ward needs $$$ these days. Probably got a nice payday for that appearance.

haha jesus christ you are delusional? you seriously think ward didn't admire bonzo?? you are fucking nuts....ward (who seems like total sweetheart) shares this sweet remembrance of bonzo and you think he was paid to do it?

you realize bonzo was the best man at tony iommi's wedding right??

yes he is delusional

seriously i feel like i'm trapped in an argument between two 15 yr old burnouts in 1976

That film is dubbed. Its not really Ward saying that stuff. He's really saying "thanks for coming. try the veal and tip your server".

If Ward is so good and nice then why is he not in Black Sabbath? Huh? HUH!?

Case closed.

the lawyer in the Spirit/Zep case sounds like such a despicable fuckup in this unrelated lawsuit that Zep probably has nothing to worry about:

http://m.billboard.com/articles/columns/the-juice/6099113/usher-gets-good-news-in-bad-girl-dispute

It has an unusual structure. No chorus, just verse piled upon verse until it builds to a single peak. I like that.

― Mark, Sunday, July 14, 2002 7:00 PM (12 years ago)

it does have the refrain tho to link the verses together - 'makes me wonder'

i haven't checked but i feel like it gets a lot out of its pronouns. opening section, the singer sings about the lady. he shows up later as an 'i'. then when he's still singing as an 'i' he sings 'you' a lot - he seems to technically be addressing the lady, but it's all very canny, since by that point momentum has been building and the song has been getting more involving and just the way the phrasing works, it's pretty natural to think it's about 'you', but it's not the 'you' of a rock song in the format of being addressed to a generic/specific opposite for the singer (lover, romantic pursuit, etc.), by the time that it's been narrativized like that you hear it as the second-person present that signals an immediate perspective (jay mcinerny-style, at least per what used to be the go-to example) that tracks thru the real-time movement of the song that you're experiencing. which, duh - look at the lyrics at that point, when the drums kick in

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now,
It's just a spring clean for the May queen.
Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on.
And it makes me wonder.

Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know,
The piper's calling you to join him,
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind?

so you literally get a little discombobulated by the hedgerow line, because he tells you not to be alarmed just after you're like, what the fuck is a hedgero—oh right, and then the next line doesn't quite parse, so you feel a sense of mystery, and just as the music is amping up he starts talking about you like you're traveling and there's still time, so you're sitting there feeling the time get faster (so there's urgency! there's time but you can't be late!) and yes your head IS humming because the music is humming and the piper's calling YOU! after that i feel like the slip back to addressing the lady is just a formality.

can u tell i've been listening to a lot of zeppelin this week

The lack of coherency in the lyric may be one of the reasons why Plant appears to be so embarrassed by Stairway nowadays. Can't say it bothers me, but then again no one's asking me to sing it in public.

J., there's also a "we" that seems important: between the "I' verse ("There's a feeling I get...") and the first "you" verse (the hedgerow business), you get "And it's whispered that soon/If we all call the tune/Then the piper will lead us to reason/And a new day will dawn" etc. Then the third-person lady, the "you", and the "we" (but not the "I") all come together in the final hard rock section: "we wind on down the road"; "there walks a lady we all know"; "if you listen very hard, the tune will come to you at last".

yes, i left those out even though they're obviously the payoff pronouns, because i don't know what we're supposed to be, like, united behind, even though obviously we are. calling the tune.

Back in the news.

Already noted in the general Zep thread...

this is playing in the coffee shop. hard to not start singing along.

oooOOOOOOoooooooooooo it makes me wonder

i love corny classic rock staples so much.

never been any reason is my personal stairway to heaven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QFDsUgjqIo

OMG, I don't think I've ever seen that clip. Al Stewart as a punchline! What a world!

I love SCTV so much

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jun/23/led-zeppelin-cleared-stairway-to-heaven-lawsuit-spirit

amen

correct

Stupidest infringement case ever

but wait!
https://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/Led-Zeppelin-to-face-retrial-over-Stairway-13266011.php

this is dumb as shit

While allowing a new jury to hear a recording of "Taurus" may put Led Zeppelin at a disadvantage, the context in which the recording can now be considered by jurors will be limited. The plaintiffs can play it for Page in open court to ask him if he'd ever heard the song before writing "Stairway."

Allowing "the jury to observe Page listening to the recordings would have enabled them to evaluate his demeanor while listening to the recordings as well as when answering questions," the three-judge appeals panel said. That line of questioning would be meant to establish whether Page had "access" to the song, an element of copyright infringement.

At the same time, the jury will still be instructed only to consider the sheet music when assessing whether the two songs are "substantially similar," the other element of infringement, the appeals court said.