http://i.imgur.com/eYgixu9.jpg
― tsrobodo, Monday, 2 June 2014 13:01 (nine years ago) link
echoing comments above - the continued extermination of any characters i gain even a superficial appreciation for is quickly draining my interest in this show. i know enough of GRRM philosophy about writing this show to not have been surprised but there are diminishing returns to his approach. i like to have investment in characters beyond just wanting certain of them to die. if they carry out tyrion's execution that's probably the point after which any interest in this story is exhausted for me
― building a desert (art), Monday, 2 June 2014 13:02 (nine years ago) link
what a bunch of crybabies
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 2 June 2014 13:12 (nine years ago) link
I suspect this death would have some repercussions and also some interesting narrative side effects w/r/t other characters. I wasn't surprised by this at all; to have the red viper serve as both the guy who'd save tyrion and kill the mountain w/other characters who fit those roles better still lurking around seemed unlikely.
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Monday, 2 June 2014 13:13 (nine years ago) link
I think this could be tywin's undoing tbh, I mean dorne seems to not love the lannisters already and didn't the red viper have a feared brother who was supposed to attend the wedding but chose not to go?
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Monday, 2 June 2014 13:15 (nine years ago) link
I don't think this scene was set up to be a mere bait and switch, it was set up for other reasons. Of course I haven't read the novels past a clash of kings so this is just total speculation.
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Monday, 2 June 2014 13:17 (nine years ago) link
During the whole fight scene, I was like "this feels off." It felt so triumphant and corny; in other words not like GoT at all, and I was naive enough to think that Oberyn might actually win. All narratives are emotionally manipulative, but man, GRRM-and-the-showrunners, this shit is just cruel. And I get how it plays into the whole thematic core of the series (Tyrion's beetle-crushing speech underlines it) but this is a lesson the story has already taught us many times. At this point, it really does feel gratuitous, and imo it just deadens the story. Anti-climactic is definitely the right word. So right now (I haven't read the books) it seems quite likely that Tyrion may die, and if he dies, I will feel like my time was wasted, even though it arguably wasn't wasted at all in a lot of ways.
What's funny about this is I am guilty of thinking that writers owe me something, even though they quite obviously don't. I guess that's one of the costs of being emotionally invested in any story.
― zchyrs, Monday, 2 June 2014 13:26 (nine years ago) link
Maybe it's not a bait-and-switch in the larger context of the narrative, but in the context of watching the show unfold it definitely felt like one, and I'm sure the writers were 100% aware of that.
― zchyrs, Monday, 2 June 2014 13:27 (nine years ago) link
call it what you want but that is not anti-climactic.
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 2 June 2014 13:29 (nine years ago) link
like, if they had decided to make nice and not fight, that would be anti-climactic. dude goring the mountain and then getting his head popped while everyone screams and a death sentence is pronounced on tyrion is about as climactic as things get it
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 2 June 2014 13:30 (nine years ago) link
anti-climactic doesn't mean "what i hoped happened didnt happen"
that beetle-crushing speech was awful. Like I get Dinklage has minimum screentime requirements and needed something to do, but I read people saying it was long, fast-forwarded about five minutes and he was still shiting on?
― gyac, Monday, 2 June 2014 13:32 (nine years ago) link
haha ya true
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 2 June 2014 13:33 (nine years ago) link
"so, to sum up... he liked crushing beetles. crazy"
I actually liked the beetle-crushing speech, but yeah, it was definitely longer than it needed to be.
― zchyrs, Monday, 2 June 2014 13:40 (nine years ago) link
xxxxxp okay, trade "anti-climactic" for "disappointing"
― zchyrs, Monday, 2 June 2014 13:42 (nine years ago) link
I think Red Viper losing opens up a lot more interesting narrative possibilities. I mean I was sorta horrified and bummed and LOL GRRM about it too, but guy getting his sweet vengeance, eliminating one of the more feared/mythic characters, and springing Tyrion just like that is a little zzz.
― circa1916, Monday, 2 June 2014 14:11 (nine years ago) link
s1ocki OTM throughout here.
― circa1916, Monday, 2 June 2014 14:14 (nine years ago) link
all the big shocking deaths in the series have some narrative purpose. to say they're just done for shock value/to torture the readers or viewers misses the point.
― gyac, Monday, 2 June 2014 14:14 (nine years ago) link
Diminishing returns is a good way to put it.
― Dreamland, Monday, 2 June 2014 14:17 (nine years ago) link
At this point it would be more of a shock if they actually let a 'good' character live
― Dreamland, Monday, 2 June 2014 14:19 (nine years ago) link
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3255892/crushing-your-head-o.gif
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Monday, 2 June 2014 14:19 (nine years ago) link
beetle story was anti-climactic. exploded head was not. my wife's shout at that moment "AHHGHGHGH! FUCK Game of Thrones!"
― akm, Monday, 2 June 2014 14:20 (nine years ago) link
Also you guys the most despicable character in the series died an agonizing death a couple of episodes ago, GRRM isn't 100% of the time trying to bum you out.
― circa1916, Monday, 2 June 2014 14:44 (nine years ago) link
Well, give or take a Ramsay Snow. But in some ways, Arya's response seems quite apt for the unimportant detours this narrative continues to take.
― Frederik B, Monday, 2 June 2014 14:57 (nine years ago) link
a ramsay BOLTON
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 2 June 2014 15:02 (nine years ago) link
i don't want to jinx anything - but Arya is still alive. so are 2/3 of her brothers and her sister; but let's face it – Arya is the one we like.
― Porto for Pyros (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 2 June 2014 15:09 (nine years ago) link
an·ti·cli·max [an-ti-klahy-maks] Show IPAnoun1.an event, conclusion, statement, etc., that is far less important, powerful, or striking than expected.2.a descent in power, quality, dignity, etc.; a disappointing, weak, or inglorious conclusion: After serving as president, he may find life in retirement an anticlimax.3.a noticeable or ludicrous descent from lofty ideas or expressions to banalities or commonplace remarks: We were amused by the anticlimax of the company's motto: “For God, for country, and for Acme Gasworks.”
idk i think this counts. maybe not definition 1 so much but taking the guy avenging his sister and her children and making it about meaningless violence + death is def an anticlimax.
― Mordy, Monday, 2 June 2014 15:09 (nine years ago) link
that outcome felt sadistic to me but slocki and others are making a good case here
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Monday, 2 June 2014 15:10 (nine years ago) link
i liked the beetle killing bit! It might've been the first moment on the show where any of the principals discussed the concept of sanctity of life at all... ned started the show by killing a dude for telling the truth and he was supposed to be the good guy!
― Look at this joke I've recognised, do you recognise it as well? (forksclovetofu), Monday, 2 June 2014 15:11 (nine years ago) link
(that is responding to the people saying all our fav characters are getting smashed)
also - i kinda liked the beetle scene. was a weird, relaxed contrast to the totally insane scene we all knew was coming up.
woah - 3x post
― Porto for Pyros (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 2 June 2014 15:12 (nine years ago) link
for those of us who haven't read the books, one thing to think about: i think it's possible that TV-only people are overplaying the awesomeness as oberyn as a character because pedro pascal played the role with so much charisma that it seems like such a waste for him to already be dead. but perhaps in the books he feels more like a character whose main function is to grease the wheels of a few bigger plots
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Monday, 2 June 2014 15:13 (nine years ago) link
it's a huge climactic battle! just because your favourite guy died doesn't make it any less so... he died in teh most climactic way possible!
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 2 June 2014 15:16 (nine years ago) link
an event, conclusion, statement, etc., that is far less important, powerful, or striking than expected.
how was it less important to the plot (tyrion gets sentenced), powerful (head explodes), striking (same)
a descent in power, quality, dignity, etc.; a disappointing, weak, or inglorious conclusion: After serving as president, he may find life in retirement an anticlimax.
don't try and tell me that scene was analogous to a quiet life in retirement.
a noticeable or ludicrous descent from lofty ideas or expressions to banalities or commonplace remarks: We were amused by the anticlimax of the company's motto: “For God, for country, and for Acme Gasworks.”
not applicable at all
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 2 June 2014 15:17 (nine years ago) link
it's pretty clear that the Starks are the good guys, right? and there are still 5 of the 6 children still alive (most of them against all odds!) don't really get the argument that all the good people have been killed.
― mizzell, Monday, 2 June 2014 15:21 (nine years ago) link
While some of you guys are complaining about sadism and intent and diminishing returns, Pedro Pascal has the correct spirit:
https://twitter.com/PedroPascal1/status/473288824781815808
https://twitter.com/PedroPascal1/status/473481358556160002
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 2 June 2014 15:22 (nine years ago) link
tyrion won't die. that's the exception that proves the rule of this show (everyone else can die). jon snow may be untouchable as well. tyrion dying, at any rate, would be the closest thing to a narrative suicide i've ever seen! what a boring show we'd be left with unless it went on to be something unexpected. no other character we already know can really handle being that central. also, i do not understand what's appealing about the arya character.
― ryan, Monday, 2 June 2014 15:25 (nine years ago) link
giggling sociopath - feel like i've seen the trope a lot in manga/anime? very charming version of it imo
― Mordy, Monday, 2 June 2014 15:26 (nine years ago) link
more like
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080724135908/watchmen/images/9/96/The_Comedian_Barbequing.jpg
― resulting post (rogermexico.), Monday, 2 June 2014 15:40 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, come on guys, so many good characters remain: RICKON STARK!
― Frederik B, Monday, 2 June 2014 15:46 (nine years ago) link
it's pretty clear that the Starks are the good guys, right?
not necessarily. this is really a show/book problem as the show, much like with Tyrion, hasn't really done much with the greyer sides of their characters yet. basically if you have a favourite in this, accept that they've either done or will do evil at some point (hello Arya fans I am talking to you and your glorification of a character the author refers to as a child soldier).
― gyac, Monday, 2 June 2014 15:50 (nine years ago) link
martin's attempt to break free from the bonds of formulaic fantasy drama has effectively become formulaic itself. almost every season we get some horrific denouement whereby a character who was the target of significant development is abruptly rent from the story and, in the case of both ned stark and the red wedding, it happened in the same episode of the respective season (which leaves ample opportunity for yet more destruction next sunday). the case of oberyn resonates because he starts out as this tangential character, comes on the scene and receives a fair amount of attention, and then is ejected rather abruptly. this leaves me wondering what the point of his development was in the first place (maybe this will be further illuminated in later episodes) and why i should care about the development of any other character series wide.
― building a desert (art), Monday, 2 June 2014 16:01 (nine years ago) link
It's been going for four seasons now and you're still watching it so there's your answer?
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 2 June 2014 16:17 (nine years ago) link
oberyn is the epitome of a minor character arc. starts tangential, does his tap dance, leaves. this isnt really revolutionary.
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 2 June 2014 16:18 (nine years ago) link
yeah, if the only "point" of his development is that he has an enjoyable story at the end of which he dies in an exciting scene why is that deficient for a character in a tv show?
― Roberto Spiralli, Monday, 2 June 2014 16:22 (nine years ago) link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosencrantz_and_Guildenstern
― socki (s1ocki), Monday, 2 June 2014 16:26 (nine years ago) link
still haven't seen the episode but the moaning here and the lack of general 'wow that was awesome' would seem to indicate they didnt' pull off what is imo the most thrilling part of the books. i'd thought all season they hadn't really done a great job of establishing the viper but the fallout here i think is due more to the show just having completely failed to establish the mountain over the past few years, he isn't necessarily a deeper character in the books but does loom larger and play a more visible role in the action. the show also has always gone for the cheap and sensational be it w/ sex or gore or torture or rape (kinda robs some of the horror of the mountain having raped an old queen when you have a supposedly sympathetic knight rape the next one). not that alot of this stuff isn't in the books just that the show really seems to think they're what's most interesting or necessary to keep the viewer's interest. anyhow yes the red viper is a minor character but he was interesting as this impulsive angry face of this previously unseen major power in the story, he was interesting precisely cuz of this duel and what led up to it and the politics in play, he wasn't interesting cuz he was a charismatic bisexual who hung out in whorehouses and found a kindred spirit in tyrion.
― balls, Monday, 2 June 2014 16:38 (nine years ago) link
this thread is way too big, is it too weird to start a new one now with just a few episodes left?
there's probably a lot of finale talk on the way and this thread already konks out my computer
― brio, Monday, 2 June 2014 16:38 (nine years ago) link
Use a bookmark
― polyphonic, Monday, 2 June 2014 16:39 (nine years ago) link
yeah fair enough
― brio, Monday, 2 June 2014 16:40 (nine years ago) link