HBO adaptation of Game of Thrones - will this be just for nerds? (NO SPOILERS PLEASE)

I suspect this death would have some repercussions and also some interesting narrative side effects w/r/t other characters. I wasn't surprised by this at all; to have the red viper serve as both the guy who'd save tyrion and kill the mountain w/other characters who fit those roles better still lurking around seemed unlikely.

I think this could be tywin's undoing tbh, I mean dorne seems to not love the lannisters already and didn't the red viper have a feared brother who was supposed to attend the wedding but chose not to go?

I don't think this scene was set up to be a mere bait and switch, it was set up for other reasons. Of course I haven't read the novels past a clash of kings so this is just total speculation.

During the whole fight scene, I was like "this feels off." It felt so triumphant and corny; in other words not like GoT at all, and I was naive enough to think that Oberyn might actually win. All narratives are emotionally manipulative, but man, GRRM-and-the-showrunners, this shit is just cruel. And I get how it plays into the whole thematic core of the series (Tyrion's beetle-crushing speech underlines it) but this is a lesson the story has already taught us many times. At this point, it really does feel gratuitous, and imo it just deadens the story. Anti-climactic is definitely the right word. So right now (I haven't read the books) it seems quite likely that Tyrion may die, and if he dies, I will feel like my time was wasted, even though it arguably wasn't wasted at all in a lot of ways.

What's funny about this is I am guilty of thinking that writers owe me something, even though they quite obviously don't. I guess that's one of the costs of being emotionally invested in any story.

Maybe it's not a bait-and-switch in the larger context of the narrative, but in the context of watching the show unfold it definitely felt like one, and I'm sure the writers were 100% aware of that.

call it what you want but that is not anti-climactic.

like, if they had decided to make nice and not fight, that would be anti-climactic. dude goring the mountain and then getting his head popped while everyone screams and a death sentence is pronounced on tyrion is about as climactic as things get it

anti-climactic doesn't mean "what i hoped happened didnt happen"

that beetle-crushing speech was awful. Like I get Dinklage has minimum screentime requirements and needed something to do, but I read people saying it was long, fast-forwarded about five minutes and he was still shiting on?

haha ya true

"so, to sum up... he liked crushing beetles. crazy"

I actually liked the beetle-crushing speech, but yeah, it was definitely longer than it needed to be.

xxxxxp okay, trade "anti-climactic" for "disappointing"

I think Red Viper losing opens up a lot more interesting narrative possibilities. I mean I was sorta horrified and bummed and LOL GRRM about it too, but guy getting his sweet vengeance, eliminating one of the more feared/mythic characters, and springing Tyrion just like that is a little zzz.

s1ocki OTM throughout here.

all the big shocking deaths in the series have some narrative purpose. to say they're just done for shock value/to torture the readers or viewers misses the point.

Diminishing returns is a good way to put it.

At this point it would be more of a shock if they actually let a 'good' character live

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3255892/crushing-your-head-o.gif

beetle story was anti-climactic. exploded head was not. my wife's shout at that moment "AHHGHGHGH! FUCK Game of Thrones!"

Also you guys the most despicable character in the series died an agonizing death a couple of episodes ago, GRRM isn't 100% of the time trying to bum you out.

Well, give or take a Ramsay Snow. But in some ways, Arya's response seems quite apt for the unimportant detours this narrative continues to take.

a ramsay BOLTON

i don't want to jinx anything - but Arya is still alive. so are 2/3 of her brothers and her sister; but let's face it – Arya is the one we like.

an·ti·cli·max [an-ti-klahy-maks] Show IPA
noun
1.
an event, conclusion, statement, etc., that is far less important, powerful, or striking than expected.
2.
a descent in power, quality, dignity, etc.; a disappointing, weak, or inglorious conclusion: After serving as president, he may find life in retirement an anticlimax.
3.
a noticeable or ludicrous descent from lofty ideas or expressions to banalities or commonplace remarks: We were amused by the anticlimax of the company's motto: “For God, for country, and for Acme Gasworks.”

idk i think this counts. maybe not definition 1 so much but taking the guy avenging his sister and her children and making it about meaningless violence + death is def an anticlimax.

that outcome felt sadistic to me but slocki and others are making a good case here

i liked the beetle killing bit! It might've been the first moment on the show where any of the principals discussed the concept of sanctity of life at all... ned started the show by killing a dude for telling the truth and he was supposed to be the good guy!

(that is responding to the people saying all our fav characters are getting smashed)

also - i kinda liked the beetle scene. was a weird, relaxed contrast to the totally insane scene we all knew was coming up.

woah - 3x post

for those of us who haven't read the books, one thing to think about: i think it's possible that TV-only people are overplaying the awesomeness as oberyn as a character because pedro pascal played the role with so much charisma that it seems like such a waste for him to already be dead. but perhaps in the books he feels more like a character whose main function is to grease the wheels of a few bigger plots

it's a huge climactic battle! just because your favourite guy died doesn't make it any less so... he died in teh most climactic way possible!

an event, conclusion, statement, etc., that is far less important, powerful, or striking than expected.

how was it less important to the plot (tyrion gets sentenced), powerful (head explodes), striking (same)

a descent in power, quality, dignity, etc.; a disappointing, weak, or inglorious conclusion: After serving as president, he may find life in retirement an anticlimax.

don't try and tell me that scene was analogous to a quiet life in retirement.

a noticeable or ludicrous descent from lofty ideas or expressions to banalities or commonplace remarks: We were amused by the anticlimax of the company's motto: “For God, for country, and for Acme Gasworks.”

not applicable at all

it's pretty clear that the Starks are the good guys, right? and there are still 5 of the 6 children still alive (most of them against all odds!) don't really get the argument that all the good people have been killed.

While some of you guys are complaining about sadism and intent and diminishing returns, Pedro Pascal has the correct spirit:

https://twitter.com/PedroPascal1/status/473288824781815808

https://twitter.com/PedroPascal1/status/473481358556160002

tyrion won't die. that's the exception that proves the rule of this show (everyone else can die). jon snow may be untouchable as well. tyrion dying, at any rate, would be the closest thing to a narrative suicide i've ever seen! what a boring show we'd be left with unless it went on to be something unexpected. no other character we already know can really handle being that central. also, i do not understand what's appealing about the arya character.

giggling sociopath - feel like i've seen the trope a lot in manga/anime? very charming version of it imo

more like

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080724135908/watchmen/images/9/96/The_Comedian_Barbequing.jpg

Yeah, come on guys, so many good characters remain: RICKON STARK!

it's pretty clear that the Starks are the good guys, right?

not necessarily. this is really a show/book problem as the show, much like with Tyrion, hasn't really done much with the greyer sides of their characters yet. basically if you have a favourite in this, accept that they've either done or will do evil at some point (hello Arya fans I am talking to you and your glorification of a character the author refers to as a child soldier).

martin's attempt to break free from the bonds of formulaic fantasy drama has effectively become formulaic itself. almost every season we get some horrific denouement whereby a character who was the target of significant development is abruptly rent from the story and, in the case of both ned stark and the red wedding, it happened in the same episode of the respective season (which leaves ample opportunity for yet more destruction next sunday). the case of oberyn resonates because he starts out as this tangential character, comes on the scene and receives a fair amount of attention, and then is ejected rather abruptly. this leaves me wondering what the point of his development was in the first place (maybe this will be further illuminated in later episodes) and why i should care about the development of any other character series wide.

It's been going for four seasons now and you're still watching it so there's your answer?

oberyn is the epitome of a minor character arc. starts tangential, does his tap dance, leaves. this isnt really revolutionary.

yeah, if the only "point" of his development is that he has an enjoyable story at the end of which he dies in an exciting scene why is that deficient for a character in a tv show?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosencrantz_and_Guildenstern

still haven't seen the episode but the moaning here and the lack of general 'wow that was awesome' would seem to indicate they didnt' pull off what is imo the most thrilling part of the books. i'd thought all season they hadn't really done a great job of establishing the viper but the fallout here i think is due more to the show just having completely failed to establish the mountain over the past few years, he isn't necessarily a deeper character in the books but does loom larger and play a more visible role in the action. the show also has always gone for the cheap and sensational be it w/ sex or gore or torture or rape (kinda robs some of the horror of the mountain having raped an old queen when you have a supposedly sympathetic knight rape the next one). not that alot of this stuff isn't in the books just that the show really seems to think they're what's most interesting or necessary to keep the viewer's interest. anyhow yes the red viper is a minor character but he was interesting as this impulsive angry face of this previously unseen major power in the story, he was interesting precisely cuz of this duel and what led up to it and the politics in play, he wasn't interesting cuz he was a charismatic bisexual who hung out in whorehouses and found a kindred spirit in tyrion.

this thread is way too big, is it too weird to start a new one now with just a few episodes left?

there's probably a lot of finale talk on the way and this thread already konks out my computer

Use a bookmark

yeah fair enough

still haven't seen the episode but the moaning here and the lack of general 'wow that was awesome' would seem to indicate they didnt' pull off what is imo the most thrilling part of the books. i'd thought all season they hadn't really done a great job of establishing the viper but the fallout here i think is due more to the show just having completely failed to establish the mountain over the past few years, he isn't necessarily a deeper character in the books but does loom larger and play a more visible role in the action. the show also has always gone for the cheap and sensational be it w/ sex or gore or torture or rape (kinda robs some of the horror of the mountain having raped an old queen when you have a supposedly sympathetic knight rape the next one). not that alot of this stuff isn't in the books just that the show really seems to think they're what's most interesting or necessary to keep the viewer's interest. anyhow yes the red viper is a minor character but he was interesting as this impulsive angry face of this previously unseen major power in the story, he was interesting precisely cuz of this duel and what led up to it and the politics in play, he wasn't interesting cuz he was a charismatic bisexual who hung out in whorehouses and found a kindred spirit in tyrion.

― balls, Monday, June 2, 2014 12:38 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i def agree that the mountain, haha "looms larger" in the books. and i think the guy that they mysteriously recast him with is a bit of a dud. he should be terrifying, not just physically, but as this presence that haunts westeros

yeah i havent caught up w/ this ep yet but to me this scene was absolutely the most brutal and well-executed scene in the books and its consequences are pretty big, so i was hoping they would do it justice like they did (imo) for ned's execution

i mean in the books the mountain is this character that has been looming as this malignant ridiculously powerful (or not powerful, the tyrell's are powerful, strong rather) creature, this useful tool of the lannisters whose death you hope for and wait for nearly as much as joffrey's and the red viper is this character that comes in on a diplomatic mission but is very undiplomatic w/ the lannisters who cannot respond in kind, hungry for justice and amends and set up to put the screws to the lannisters only his impulsiveness and rage and weird sense of pride and honor make him unable to pass up the opportunity to extract revenge on the mountain himself and in the book what's amazing is he nearly does it, in really thrilling fashion, and what slips him up and costs him his life is the same impulse that led him to fight in the first place.