HBO adaptation of Game of Thrones - will this be just for nerds? (NO SPOILERS PLEASE)

Also you guys the most despicable character in the series died an agonizing death a couple of episodes ago, GRRM isn't 100% of the time trying to bum you out.

Well, give or take a Ramsay Snow. But in some ways, Arya's response seems quite apt for the unimportant detours this narrative continues to take.

a ramsay BOLTON

i don't want to jinx anything - but Arya is still alive. so are 2/3 of her brothers and her sister; but let's face it – Arya is the one we like.

an·ti·cli·max [an-ti-klahy-maks] Show IPA
noun
1.
an event, conclusion, statement, etc., that is far less important, powerful, or striking than expected.
2.
a descent in power, quality, dignity, etc.; a disappointing, weak, or inglorious conclusion: After serving as president, he may find life in retirement an anticlimax.
3.
a noticeable or ludicrous descent from lofty ideas or expressions to banalities or commonplace remarks: We were amused by the anticlimax of the company's motto: “For God, for country, and for Acme Gasworks.”

idk i think this counts. maybe not definition 1 so much but taking the guy avenging his sister and her children and making it about meaningless violence + death is def an anticlimax.

that outcome felt sadistic to me but slocki and others are making a good case here

i liked the beetle killing bit! It might've been the first moment on the show where any of the principals discussed the concept of sanctity of life at all... ned started the show by killing a dude for telling the truth and he was supposed to be the good guy!

(that is responding to the people saying all our fav characters are getting smashed)

also - i kinda liked the beetle scene. was a weird, relaxed contrast to the totally insane scene we all knew was coming up.

woah - 3x post

for those of us who haven't read the books, one thing to think about: i think it's possible that TV-only people are overplaying the awesomeness as oberyn as a character because pedro pascal played the role with so much charisma that it seems like such a waste for him to already be dead. but perhaps in the books he feels more like a character whose main function is to grease the wheels of a few bigger plots

it's a huge climactic battle! just because your favourite guy died doesn't make it any less so... he died in teh most climactic way possible!

an event, conclusion, statement, etc., that is far less important, powerful, or striking than expected.

how was it less important to the plot (tyrion gets sentenced), powerful (head explodes), striking (same)

a descent in power, quality, dignity, etc.; a disappointing, weak, or inglorious conclusion: After serving as president, he may find life in retirement an anticlimax.

don't try and tell me that scene was analogous to a quiet life in retirement.

a noticeable or ludicrous descent from lofty ideas or expressions to banalities or commonplace remarks: We were amused by the anticlimax of the company's motto: “For God, for country, and for Acme Gasworks.”

not applicable at all

it's pretty clear that the Starks are the good guys, right? and there are still 5 of the 6 children still alive (most of them against all odds!) don't really get the argument that all the good people have been killed.

While some of you guys are complaining about sadism and intent and diminishing returns, Pedro Pascal has the correct spirit:

https://twitter.com/PedroPascal1/status/473288824781815808

https://twitter.com/PedroPascal1/status/473481358556160002

tyrion won't die. that's the exception that proves the rule of this show (everyone else can die). jon snow may be untouchable as well. tyrion dying, at any rate, would be the closest thing to a narrative suicide i've ever seen! what a boring show we'd be left with unless it went on to be something unexpected. no other character we already know can really handle being that central. also, i do not understand what's appealing about the arya character.

giggling sociopath - feel like i've seen the trope a lot in manga/anime? very charming version of it imo

more like

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080724135908/watchmen/images/9/96/The_Comedian_Barbequing.jpg

Yeah, come on guys, so many good characters remain: RICKON STARK!

it's pretty clear that the Starks are the good guys, right?

not necessarily. this is really a show/book problem as the show, much like with Tyrion, hasn't really done much with the greyer sides of their characters yet. basically if you have a favourite in this, accept that they've either done or will do evil at some point (hello Arya fans I am talking to you and your glorification of a character the author refers to as a child soldier).

martin's attempt to break free from the bonds of formulaic fantasy drama has effectively become formulaic itself. almost every season we get some horrific denouement whereby a character who was the target of significant development is abruptly rent from the story and, in the case of both ned stark and the red wedding, it happened in the same episode of the respective season (which leaves ample opportunity for yet more destruction next sunday). the case of oberyn resonates because he starts out as this tangential character, comes on the scene and receives a fair amount of attention, and then is ejected rather abruptly. this leaves me wondering what the point of his development was in the first place (maybe this will be further illuminated in later episodes) and why i should care about the development of any other character series wide.

It's been going for four seasons now and you're still watching it so there's your answer?

oberyn is the epitome of a minor character arc. starts tangential, does his tap dance, leaves. this isnt really revolutionary.

yeah, if the only "point" of his development is that he has an enjoyable story at the end of which he dies in an exciting scene why is that deficient for a character in a tv show?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosencrantz_and_Guildenstern

still haven't seen the episode but the moaning here and the lack of general 'wow that was awesome' would seem to indicate they didnt' pull off what is imo the most thrilling part of the books. i'd thought all season they hadn't really done a great job of establishing the viper but the fallout here i think is due more to the show just having completely failed to establish the mountain over the past few years, he isn't necessarily a deeper character in the books but does loom larger and play a more visible role in the action. the show also has always gone for the cheap and sensational be it w/ sex or gore or torture or rape (kinda robs some of the horror of the mountain having raped an old queen when you have a supposedly sympathetic knight rape the next one). not that alot of this stuff isn't in the books just that the show really seems to think they're what's most interesting or necessary to keep the viewer's interest. anyhow yes the red viper is a minor character but he was interesting as this impulsive angry face of this previously unseen major power in the story, he was interesting precisely cuz of this duel and what led up to it and the politics in play, he wasn't interesting cuz he was a charismatic bisexual who hung out in whorehouses and found a kindred spirit in tyrion.

this thread is way too big, is it too weird to start a new one now with just a few episodes left?

there's probably a lot of finale talk on the way and this thread already konks out my computer

Use a bookmark

yeah fair enough

still haven't seen the episode but the moaning here and the lack of general 'wow that was awesome' would seem to indicate they didnt' pull off what is imo the most thrilling part of the books. i'd thought all season they hadn't really done a great job of establishing the viper but the fallout here i think is due more to the show just having completely failed to establish the mountain over the past few years, he isn't necessarily a deeper character in the books but does loom larger and play a more visible role in the action. the show also has always gone for the cheap and sensational be it w/ sex or gore or torture or rape (kinda robs some of the horror of the mountain having raped an old queen when you have a supposedly sympathetic knight rape the next one). not that alot of this stuff isn't in the books just that the show really seems to think they're what's most interesting or necessary to keep the viewer's interest. anyhow yes the red viper is a minor character but he was interesting as this impulsive angry face of this previously unseen major power in the story, he was interesting precisely cuz of this duel and what led up to it and the politics in play, he wasn't interesting cuz he was a charismatic bisexual who hung out in whorehouses and found a kindred spirit in tyrion.

― balls, Monday, June 2, 2014 12:38 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i def agree that the mountain, haha "looms larger" in the books. and i think the guy that they mysteriously recast him with is a bit of a dud. he should be terrifying, not just physically, but as this presence that haunts westeros

yeah i havent caught up w/ this ep yet but to me this scene was absolutely the most brutal and well-executed scene in the books and its consequences are pretty big, so i was hoping they would do it justice like they did (imo) for ned's execution

i mean in the books the mountain is this character that has been looming as this malignant ridiculously powerful (or not powerful, the tyrell's are powerful, strong rather) creature, this useful tool of the lannisters whose death you hope for and wait for nearly as much as joffrey's and the red viper is this character that comes in on a diplomatic mission but is very undiplomatic w/ the lannisters who cannot respond in kind, hungry for justice and amends and set up to put the screws to the lannisters only his impulsiveness and rage and weird sense of pride and honor make him unable to pass up the opportunity to extract revenge on the mountain himself and in the book what's amazing is he nearly does it, in really thrilling fashion, and what slips him up and costs him his life is the same impulse that led him to fight in the first place.

curious what the consequences will be.

it was a heartbreaking scene especially since oberyn was really sympathetic. it's just a shame to lose a charismatic character/actor! the show has a dearth of these outside the lannisters.

there's a certain poetic quality to oberyn's death though. he gets his revenge, essentially. humiliates tywin (momentarily). gets the mountain to confess. but as soon as his revenge is achieved he's metaphorically extinguished by it.

does the fight play out essentially the same in the book?

Pretty much. They may have excluded the pointed fingering of Tywin.

So to speak; you never know with this series.

i think w/the series they've sort of intentionally backgrounded the possible political implications, making the viewer focus on the personal quest for revenge, making us (and tywin!) forget the possible fallout & the fact that oberyn came to the wedding as a consolation prize bc his (iirc?) feared brother didn't bother to show up.

i'm not sure focusing on oberyn's story in this way was a narrative flaw, i mean.

http://i.imgur.com/IObzMd1.png

Sheesh for me the always-looming prospect of a sudden and unexpected death is one of this show's saving graces.

I can't even begin to imagine being bummed out abt the rest of the series cuz the that dude's head got crushed in...I couldn't even remember his name. But that was fun and kind of hilarious. How would you guys feel if that had been Arya Stark? Or Jamie Lanninster or even Samwell?

Not to mention it thins the herd a little. I can't think of a series in recent years that wld benefit more from binge viewing...having to wait a week to get just four or five minutes of one of the main threads at the expense of so many secondary business is a drag.

xpost Oberyn!

Uhm... someone with more recollection of the earlier scenes, how has the show talked about Doran Martell, Oberyn's brother?

yeah i really enjoyed the actor who played the viper's performance, it just didn't really match up w/ my vision of the viper and kinda robbed a great scene of some potential impact. this could just be my impression but in the book he really is this figure the lannisters cannot make a deal w/ despite trying, this pit of coiled rage, and so the duel is this moment where he just loses it and become uncoiled and it nearly wills him over the mountain but it also proves his undoing. alot of times they've made small understandable changes in how characters behave or relate to each other and it's been understandable but it's ended up robbing what should be huge moments down the line of some of their impact. the relationship between tyrion and the whore is the big one of these (though that might just be unavoidable problem of having the book told from various character's perspectives vs omniscient observer w/ a tv show). just watched the fight scene and it's pretty much how it went down in the book but there are wrong notes struck there that hurt it. a diplomat and prince from a region you're desperately trying to build a better relationship w/ dying at the hands of the criminal who raped and murdered a queen from the same region isn't a fantastic turn of events for the lanisters. they did ned's execution well and the red wedding had all the sudden, shocking but foreshadowed brutality of the book but the battle of blackwater was underwhelming and this scene was befitting the kinda comical say whaaaat look tyrion had on his face at the end (like he'd never seen a pizza that large or something). anyhow i'll shut up about the books now. as long as ppl stop pretending grrm is setting up central likeable characters just to brutally knock them off at the end since the viper wasn't remotely a central character and doesn't even show til towards the end of that book anyway. will also add pedro pascal should've been cast as daario.

for me this was the first really good action scene in the show. not sure the mountain looked like much of a fighter but perhaps that's a testament to how fluid pascal was. it was a convincing fight, and nicely showed how small his margin for error was.

feel like the 'this isn't a corny good guys v bad guys thing, this is some proper quasi realistic cloak & dagger shit, anyone can die' does not sit well w/ the show's love of gore-as-spectacle. grrm's made statements lamenting the falseness of using orcs&dark lords to embody evil, insisting that real evil is INSIDE OURSELVES. idk if it comes from his sense of history or what history he knows - there's the noted wars of the roses thing, he says he only reads pop history - but he clearly has some idea that the past was/world is ~brutal~. a courtly high medieval setting is ripe for wheels within wheels plotting, circumstances forcing ppl into actions, & you would think this might lead to some sort sense of proper tragedy, or idea that the evil&brutality is in the game itself, & there are hints at this (daenerys plot might be going this way, tyrion, ygritte & even jaimie seem to extent like good ppl trapped on the bad side, pretty much all the varys scenes are boss) but there's also this reliance on personified evil, ridiculous 2d characters like the boltons & the mountain.

grrm's world is like medieval europe except no one ever dies of sickness or through mundane yet tragic circumstance, but instead every cpl of months there's some highly theatrical & often obscenely violent death as some psychopath utters some supervillain-cold shit as they bump off another hapless - & often extremely high profile - character. there's already a long list of very inventive horrors committed by the 30-40 main characters, & it feels increasingly like those moments are defining the show. as I watched the exciting scene where a member of the nobility gets their brains smushed all over the floor while their killer boasts about raping their sister to death all I could think was "so glad I'm not watching an orc right now, this is a much more profound take on the nature of evil, really rings true"

Doran mentioned only obliquely, just that he was busy, couldn't make it.

as I watched the exciting scene where a member of the nobility gets their brains smushed all over the floor while their killer boasts about raping their sister to death all I could think was "so glad I'm not watching an orc right now, this is a much more profound take on the nature of evil, really rings true"

lol otm

someone should photoshop bruce lee and kareem abdul jabar into that scene.

You guys are gonna LOVE the new HBO series in the works, in which inhabitants of a vaguely medieval world die slowly from untreated gout, improperly sanitized food, and general sense of ennui.

Those moments DO DEFINE the show!

Just not sure how "avoiding some of the fantastical stuff that generally predominates in these movies/books" = claim to natural realism.

ahem, this is the no spoilers thread

Sorry