the phraseology "[artist x] is [music/film/literature] for [snarky description of perceived monolithic fanbase]" is one of the very worst there is
i agree! but i don't do it myself.
sam smith is afaict about stardom, which is a metaphor for money, and not even that if you're on his exec team. but he does perpetuate the Great Lie that 'it could be you'
rtc that has left me floored btw
― Who whom kissed? (imago), Saturday, 14 June 2014 11:11 (nine years ago) link
jfc
plodding, earnest, totally sincere and in love with the music soulboys have been mooning around the UK music scene since the year dot
that's a powerful projector you got there
― Naamloze vennootschap (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 14 June 2014 11:17 (nine years ago) link
lol that post was over-exasperated, dial it back a bit
― Naamloze vennootschap (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 14 June 2014 11:26 (nine years ago) link
I can relate to it! It had a big, dumb, sad tune and the lyrics appealed to big, simple emotions that I and everyone experience, albeit in much more complex ways. Then it lost my interest.
I tend to think of this as the reverse-magic-trick fallacy: when we hear music that we want to dismiss, our experience is of seeing through it, like we're watching a magician's show but can see the wires: "I can see why other people like it, but really it's just X, there's no magic here."
But this "seeing through" is not the same as "seeing" at all.
It's only when we begin to actually relate to music - that is, to position ourselves in relation to it - that music begins to seem infused with that quality of genuine connection that we associate with music that we're into.
This can be instantaneous, the first time we hear a piece of music, or it might take some time to work, or it might never happen. Typically, the more primed you are to believe something (typically because you're already invested in the stylistic signifiers) the faster that effect.
But I can think of countless examples of stuff I dismissed in this way and then much later fell in love with, became enchanted by, as if I was watching the same trick but somehow I couldn't see the wires or anymore, and I was convinced by the magic.
Not saying this will ever happen to anyone in this thread with Sam Smith, but I think as a general rule the critical stance of "I get it but I don't like it, and I don't like it because I get it" should be approached with some care for the above reason.
― Tim F, Saturday, 14 June 2014 13:07 (nine years ago) link
half-wondering if with that fiendishly bland opening post dyl always intended to be the montresor to imago's fortunato
lol i didn't imagine he would even bother wandering into this thread! but it has made for an interesting read in the end.
in pace requiescat.
― dyl, Saturday, 14 June 2014 13:31 (nine years ago) link
also xps to monotony above i'll agree that his fairly casual coming-out has been somewhat heartening even if it did seem very deliberately unfurled
― dyl, Saturday, 14 June 2014 13:32 (nine years ago) link
I dunno, I sorta feel like if record company strategy had been brought to bear on the issue he wouldn't always look like he's in theatre make-up.
― Tim F, Saturday, 14 June 2014 13:55 (nine years ago) link
I tend to think of this as the reverse-magic-trick fallacy: when we hear music that we want to dismiss, our experience is of seeing through it, like we're watching a magician's show but can see the wires: "I can see why other people like it, but really it's just X, there's no magic here."But this "seeing through" is not the same as "seeing" at all.It's only when we begin to actually relate to music - that is, to position ourselves in relation to it - that music begins to seem infused with that quality of genuine connection that we associate with music that we're into.This can be instantaneous, the first time we hear a piece of music, or it might take some time to work, or it might never happen. Typically, the more primed you are to believe something (typically because you're already invested in the stylistic signifiers) the faster that effect.But I can think of countless examples of stuff I dismissed in this way and then much later fell in love with, became enchanted by, as if I was watching the same trick but somehow I couldn't see the wires or anymore, and I was convinced by the magic.Not saying this will ever happen to anyone in this thread with Sam Smith, but I think as a general rule the critical stance of "I get it but I don't like it, and I don't like it because I get it" should be approached with some care for the above reason.― Tim F, Saturday, June 14, 2014 1:07 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Tim F, Saturday, June 14, 2014 1:07 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
ah Tim! must you ever be the rock upon which I am fated to dash myself
― Who whom kissed? (imago), Saturday, 14 June 2014 20:03 (nine years ago) link
Is imago l0u1s jagg3r? I haven't been keeping up
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Saturday, 14 June 2014 21:30 (nine years ago) link
do I scent the musty approach of a well-worn ad hominem
― Who whom kissed? (imago), Saturday, 14 June 2014 21:33 (nine years ago) link
I don't think - or I can't detect that - there was an artistic intention beyond wanting 'to be a star' through the most direct available route. Obviously he'll have music he prefers, music he's grown up with, but I genuinely think he's chosen to play the music he thinks will make him the most famous. For all I know he's a big Miles Davis fan, but isn't learning the trumpet any time soon. Of course, I can't prove his intentions, and ultimately his music is ours to interpret. But there are ways of veering adult-contemporary, and on my two listens through the single that began this thread I couldn't detect any sophistication at all. You may disagree.
Debility of talent is a symptom of wanting the buck of stardom too easy, maybe?
― Who whom kissed? (imago), Friday, June 13, 2014 6:34 PM (Yesterday)
i'm often interested in your thoughts on & taste in music, but i can't get on board w/ this. afaic, "debility of talent" isn't even a thing in itself, much less a symptom of something else. it's a perceptual phantom, an artifact. you detect no talent because you've framed "talent" in such a way as to exclude whatever it is that dude is actually good at. period.
personally, i wouldn't equate perceived "sophistication" with the presence of legitimate art. art exists in an infinite variety of forms; some seem sophisticated to me, and some don't. i hardly imagine, however, that my perception of such things means much to anyone who isn't me. i mean, you say you can't detect "artistic intention" at work here, but what on earth is "artistic intention" in the first place? how do we detect it? (once you get an answer together) really? really really?
i get that you don't like this shit. i don't either. but going any larger than that without tongue very firmly in cheek seems a bit absurd.
― sci-fi looking, chubby-leafed, delicately bizarre (contenderizer), Sunday, 15 June 2014 00:04 (nine years ago) link
personally, i get tired of "the amount of leeway ILM gives not to pop" artists "straddling dance and r&b" (if you'll forgive the frankenquote), but happily chalk it up to personal/generational differences of taste
― sci-fi looking, chubby-leafed, delicately bizarre (contenderizer), Sunday, 15 June 2014 00:12 (nine years ago) link
"...ILM gives not to pop"
lol
― sci-fi looking, chubby-leafed, delicately bizarre (contenderizer), Sunday, 15 June 2014 00:13 (nine years ago) link
"debility of talent" was nakhers' introduction, in fact, and I'm interpreting it as a perceived (by me) lack of ability to make classic (loaded, subjective term) pop music when he has all the money he could want to do so - nothing about the song I heard seemed to have anything about it to differentiate it from the throng, or indicate that it could be a major cultural force beyond its imminent moment. these are highly personal projections, of course, but i feel one can comment on 'talent' from an outside perspective as long as you frame it subjectively & accept that some degree of 'talent' does exist, if not to the degree you'd desire
your second point is harder to counter. tim f has already made it very eloquently (in the post I admiringly quoted). my only comeback would be that i really don't hear anything particularly unusual or novel being attempted, which for me bespeaks either pastiche or artistic exploitation, depending on your view. (if you go to a blues bar, you wouldn't accuse the players of exploiting the form, but is not the whole concept a joyful & worthwhile pastiche of the culturally-accepted blues experience as well as an iteration of it?)
― Who whom kissed? (imago), Sunday, 15 June 2014 00:14 (nine years ago) link
yuk @ changing horses from 'one' to 'you' mid-stride there
― Who whom kissed? (imago), Sunday, 15 June 2014 00:15 (nine years ago) link
yeah, that tim post was brilliant, esp the single-sentence 2nd paragraph. boom.
― sci-fi looking, chubby-leafed, delicately bizarre (contenderizer), Sunday, 15 June 2014 00:26 (nine years ago) link
my Clear Channel station played "Latch," 18 months after I first heard it.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 15 June 2014 02:18 (nine years ago) link
A week ago, a DJ on mine said "new from Disclosure, this is 'Latch'!"
― franklin, Sunday, 15 June 2014 05:34 (nine years ago) link
Look, they had to cross an ocean.
― Herbie Handcock (Murgatroid), Sunday, 15 June 2014 05:41 (nine years ago) link
Look, "Bohemian Rhapsody" went to #2 in 1992.
― Cronk's Not Cronk (Eric H.), Sunday, 15 June 2014 05:44 (nine years ago) link
New from Queen, this is Bohemian Rhapsody (ft. Sam Smith)
― franklin, Sunday, 15 June 2014 05:47 (nine years ago) link
Something something Coldplay.
― Herbie Handcock (Murgatroid), Sunday, 15 June 2014 05:48 (nine years ago) link
look "white noise" would be an infinitely better crossover than "latch"
― katherine, Sunday, 15 June 2014 14:00 (nine years ago) link
maybe that'll happen next
― dyl, Sunday, 15 June 2014 16:25 (nine years ago) link
I don't know that Aluna has a vocal that mainstream America is willing to get behind; people will get behind an airy kewpie-doll voice (see: Ciara) but
― Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Sunday, 15 June 2014 18:20 (nine years ago) link
Dammit
As I was saying, Aluna has a core to her sound that works well on that track but I don't know if it plays well to what US radio is looking for
― Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Sunday, 15 June 2014 18:21 (nine years ago) link
Ciara's smooth though. Aluna's occasionally jarring.
― tsrobodo, Sunday, 15 June 2014 19:57 (nine years ago) link
I would've said the same thing about sam smith's voice though
― katherine, Monday, 16 June 2014 01:51 (nine years ago) link
And though "Body Party" reached #22 in the US, it's not like radio stations are falling over themselves to play Ciara.
― ginuwine's cousin (monotony), Monday, 16 June 2014 05:54 (nine years ago) link
Latch is the worst Disclosure song and this guy's flaccid voice is the main reason why, and that Naughty Boy track would not be harmed in the slightest by removing him altogether.
I've not heard his solo stuff but he's such a terrible fit for current UK dance pop that I'm actually glad he's doing whatever else he's doing instead of getting in the way of music I actively listen to.
Admittedly that hasn't stopped producers putting Sande all over everything.
― Matt DC, Monday, 16 June 2014 08:18 (nine years ago) link
The thing about White Noise is a that it has a massive nagging hook that's nothing to do with the vocals, which Latch conspicuously lacks.
I've no idea what plays well on American radio, mind. Do they even play much massive stadium EDM?
― Matt DC, Monday, 16 June 2014 08:20 (nine years ago) link
harsh to not give an option stating he's not even nearly as interesting as Adele tbph
― dn/ac (darraghmac), Monday, 16 June 2014 09:29 (nine years ago) link
lol I just realized I live near a Sam Smith Park ;_;
― The Reverend, Saturday, 21 June 2014 14:05 (nine years ago) link
Good thread.
Also I hadn't realized that "Latch" had become a hit in the U.S.! I think I noticed that it had debuted at #99 but missed its ascendance. Haven't heard it on the radio yet.
― jaymc, Saturday, 21 June 2014 14:47 (nine years ago) link
― Matt DC, Monday, June 16, 2014 4:20 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Lots of big hits in the US in recent years have been those dance tracks where a lot of the hook is a long instrumental riff. I seriously doubt anything from Disclosure would be a pop hit right now if not for Sam Smith's career taking off, though, "Latch" entered the charts here right on the heels of "La La La" and his SNL booking.
― some dude, Saturday, 21 June 2014 16:50 (nine years ago) link
"latch" is def riding the sam smith wave to US radio but i think that song helped legitimize him -- even here -- to the point where it could even circle back like that in the first place
also this is a loose anecdotal hypothesis but based on having seen some disclosure and EDM shows, there is more audience crossover than you might think and i think there was a slow groundswell from that base that elevated "latch" in america finally as well
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 21 June 2014 18:51 (nine years ago) link
Yeah that def seems true. I think the dance features did a lot to set up his album
― some dude, Saturday, 21 June 2014 18:58 (nine years ago) link
It makes zero sense that Ed Sheeran's album is more upbeat, and at times, dancier than Sam Smith's, considering the latter has built up his rep on dance numbers (not incl. "Stay With Me", I guess).
― Herbie Handcock (Murgatroid), Saturday, 21 June 2014 19:10 (nine years ago) link
"restart" is incredible, i'm really mad that sam smith isn't trying to be millennial darryl hall or something
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 21 June 2014 19:13 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, we got stuck with chromeo dude
― The Reverend, Saturday, 21 June 2014 20:59 (nine years ago) link
Update: Just heard "Latch" on the radio yesterday afternoon.
― jaymc, Monday, 23 June 2014 17:50 (nine years ago) link
it's been getting radio play across the country.
― rap steve gadd (D-40), Monday, 23 June 2014 19:25 (nine years ago) link
― jaymc, Monday, June 23, 2014 5:50 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
fascinating and important update in the career of a major label artist
― lex pretend, Monday, 23 June 2014 20:15 (nine years ago) link
― dyl, Monday, 23 June 2014 20:17 (nine years ago) link
I heard Ed Sheeran yesterday and it wasn't a pleasant experience.
― Cronk's Not Cronk (Eric H.), Monday, 23 June 2014 20:43 (nine years ago) link
there's some Ed Sheeran song getting play on VH-1 that is an uncanny Timberlake impersonation, it's kind of incredible
― Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Monday, 23 June 2014 20:45 (nine years ago) link
No, it was an update on my post from Saturday in which I said I hadn't heard it on the radio yet.
― jaymc, Monday, 23 June 2014 20:56 (nine years ago) link
good, i was dying for an update on that post
― lex pretend, Monday, 23 June 2014 21:23 (nine years ago) link
lexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
― le goon (J0rdan S.), Monday, 23 June 2014 22:43 (nine years ago) link
they def play "latch" on z100 all the time