OH MY GOD HE'S OOGLY: nu-Who season 8

felt desperate to me, but I was kinda done with Smith

It was sweet within the scene, a lovely cap on the themes of acceptance of change through the episode, a lovely mini-echo of the thrill of the cameo at the end of the 50th, and a fun, tiny example of Moffatt’s interest in actually using time travel for various storytelling possibilities, as exercised since Continuity Errors.

This is one of the only times the show has ever even had the opportunity to do a multi-Doctor appearance on a small scale, due to continuity of creative personnel*, which makes it not only worth taking the chance, but exciting that they kept it a surprise for viewers.

It’s also going to play really differently for all future viewers of Who, who’ll be running directly from the Trenzalore episode into this on their streaming marathons – it’s not like the past, where it has been six months or more between the previous Doctor’s last episode and the new one’s first, and you’d never see the earlier episode again. It’ll play more like closure of the hand-over, especially given the uncharacteristically abrupt regeneration itself.

*TOO LONG DON'T READ but since it occurred to me:

Wiles had actually had Hartnell written out in the middle of a four-parter, before higher-ups balked and gave Hartnell a contract extension, making both Wiles (producer) and Tosh (script editor) quit. It only took replacement producer Lloyd one story into the next season before writing him out permanently.

All hands changed between Spearhead and Silurians, along with the setting, the colour, and the cast (and Sherwin had been trying to leave for months anyway; Bryant had been almost-taking over for months, but got sent with him to a new assignment); there was a two-month gap in production before the new crew started filming again, but they became the most stable creative team in the show’s history, and came up with the idea of multi-Doctoring for the 10th anniversary. They (Letts/Dicks) then (on purpose this time) left after Tom’s first story.

Bidmead, script editor of Tom’s last season, wrote the first of Davison’s, but wasn’t commissioned to do so until months after he’d left – and they made that one after making the subsequent THREE MONTHS’ worth of episodes anyway. That whole season went through three script editors, four if you count JNT making commissions and creating K-9 & Company himself.

Davison -> Colin was the first time, 21 years into the series, where the producer and script editor carried on across a change in Doctors for more than one transitional story, and it was only five months after The Five Doctors. And TBF, Saward (I think? it’s not the sort of thing Holmes cared about) did put the past companions, even wee dead Adric and doofy old Kamelion, into Davison’s dying hallucinations.

Saward quit explosively an episode before the end of the Trial, story-deaf JNT began commissioning stories again, Colin was fired so hard he refused to even shoot a regeneration, let alone consider multi-Doctor crossovering, and Cartmel’s approach once he took over after McCoy’s first story was about changing the style, tone, and considerations of the series, not looking back.

Obv nobody carried on in the 8-year and 1-ocean gaps before and after McGann.

RTD and Julie stayed in place for Ecclestone -> Tennant, the second instance in 43 years, at a time when the actor refused to do anything at all with the show, and they needed to be moving ahead anyway.

And every single senior production person, and 100% of the cast, changed between Tennant and Smith, though Moffatt tried to convince Tennant into staying on a year.

a fun, tiny example of Moffatt’s interest in actually using time travel for various storytelling possibilities, as exercised since Continuity Errors.

This is one of the only times the show has ever even had the opportunity to do a multi-Doctor appearance on a small scale, due to continuity of creative personnel*, which makes it not only worth taking the chance, but exciting that they kept it a surprise for viewers.

I totally agree with this... I loved Smith, and I didn't know he was gonna be in this, so it was indeed a pleasant surprise. And given that the Doctor's main thing is that he's an ages-old time traveller, in-universe it feels a bit strange that he doesn't come into contact with his past or future selves more often. And I liked the idea that a contact like this doesn't have to be something huge that's advertised well in advance, it can be small and low-key like here.

IMO, a great idea for an episode would be that the Doctor casually meets some strange person from the future... And later on, when the Doctor regenerates, we find out that person was the Doctor's incarnation. Since he keeps on meeting his past incarnations, there's no reason why shouldn't occasionally meet future ones too. Though of course pulling off a trick like this would mean they'd have to keep the casting of the next Doctor a secret, which probably isn't possible?

Though if the Roman guy Capaldi played in the Pompeii episode turns out to be the Doctor in disguise, I guess they would've sorta done this, in a retconnish way... In the old-Who era, did any of the Doctor actors appear in some other role before they were cast as him?

Yep, the Sixth played a Time Lord guard in a story with the Fifth.

Colin Baker appears in uniform on Gallifrey before he becomes the Doctor. I think he's a Palace Guard officer or something.

Is there any link between the characters played by the old & young Bernard Cribbins? Or is the young one just in a film so not count?

Ah. That's easy. Just waggle his tail.

Thanks for the info! I guess in those cases they didn't try to explain why some random character looked like the future Doctor, like they're doing now with Capaldi?

(xpost)

Well, now his probe circuit's jammed.

T - nope. However, in the late 1970s, Time Lady companion Romana regenerated at the start of a new season, "trying on" a series of bodies before settling in the new actress' -- who had appeared in the last story the previous year. So there's precedent there!

I hope they don't do any more than the couple of references in Deep Breath - it was just enough imo.

Is there any link between the characters played by the old & young Bernard Cribbins? Or is the young one just in a film so not count?

Philip Madoc appeared in the same film (1966), The Krotons (1968), The War Games (1969), The Brain Of Morbius (1976), and The Power Of Kroll (1978). He played different characters, from different planets, in each.

I as actually wondering when I wrote that if they were connected at all. I guess that means no.

I hope they don't do any more than the couple of references in Deep Breath - it was just enough imo.

Wasn't the story that Davies had some explanation why the Pompeii guy and the guy Capaldi played in Torchwood look the same? And Moffatt asked him if the explanation still works for the Doctor looking the same, and Davies said it does. So it sound like we're going to get that explanation.

I don't think the references in Deep Breath were enough, the Doctor says he chose that particular face to remind himself of something, but it's still unclear what that something is. TBH I don't think there was any need to explain why he looks like another character (since using the same actors in different roles happens all the time on TV), but now that they've decided to hint that there is a some mysterious reason for it, they do owe us the full story.

Time Lady companion Romana regenerated at the start of a new season, "trying on" a series of bodies before settling in the new actress' -- who had appeared in the last story the previous year. So there's precedent there!

This is interesting! Was there any plot-specific reason why she chose that particular body, or did they just like the actress?

What the Doctor seemed to be saying in "Deep Breath" was that he (perhaps unconsciously?) figured out something important, and he chose Capaldi's face so he could make the new incarnation remember what that important thing was. Which seems like an pointlessly complex of conveying messages from one incarnation to another, why not just leave a post-it note on the TARDIS's wall or something?

Trying on different bodies would seem to go against the finite number of regenerations thing wouldn't it? Or does that not count since she's in the process of stabilising?
Presume it was before the number was stated then?

While thinking about Romana, looks like I just got it confirmed that it was the same actress Lalla Ward that is married to Richard Dawkins. Think I'd seen a dedication to her in the front of a book by him i was looking at & wondered if there were 2 Lalla Wards.

Had Clara's passion for Marcus Aurelius been established before? Because it seemed a bit odd popping up in this episode & in combination w/ Capaldi wondering where he got his face, it made me think there would be something vaguely Roman happening down the line.

(Mostly enjoyed the episode. Capaldi great & thought the restaurant scene had a real creepiness that Who hasn't pulled off lately)

Had Clara's passion for Marcus Aurelius been established before?

IIRC it was established long before Capaldi was cast? But if they have some Roman theme coming, I guess serendipitous that they could also tie that in.

Agree with you about the restaurant scene, that was much creepier than the "don't breath" scenes.

xp oh, ok, I just didn't remember that at all.

Maybe I remember it wrong though? I haven't rewatched the Clara episodes, but I have a recollection of it being mentioned during the previous season.

no, quite right, though not pre-capaldi-casting - she quotes him in the Day of the Doctor apparently:
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius

Oh, okay! Then I guess it might be intentional foreshadowing?

I thought that was a pretty lousy series opener. Apart from a few bits of business, Capaldi was a bit... predictable? And Clara is boring as ever - you can blame the scriptwriters for not developing her character, but this is what, Clara's tenth episode? It's a lazy performance, and even worse, she can't do jokes.

Actually I thought Capaldi had better chemistry with the tramp - maybe he should have been the companion.

Clara's getting better imo but I'm not a big fan of Jenna Coleman – and yeah I don't really like her quip delivery - feels like there's a lot of rote pert sarcasm.

I would love it if they ditched Clara for a elderly lady companion like Evelyn Miles and turned it into one of those British old people mystery shows. I guess that would totally alienate about 2/3rds of the viewership though.

And Clara is boring as ever

Huh, I thought Clara was way way better than she ever has been before in this episode.

yeah I noticed I disliked her far less than I had previously. So hope she continues to improve.
I'm still trying to remember what that characteristic i that I read breeders breed into pets that makes them look far more like their immature/baby/puppy version than the mature version originally did. Cos I wanted to use it to describe the version of her that was in the last Matt Smith series, all overlarge eyes and all. she looks like she belongs in a 70s Japanese cartoon like Marine Boy or something.

Hey have you ever seen Frobisher and the Doctor in the same room at the same time?? *nods sagely*

I'm still trying to remember what that characteristic i that I read breeders breed into pets that makes them look far more like their immature/baby/puppy version than the mature version originally did.

Neoteny.

THanks for that. I think I came across a short article on the neotenic effect somewhere a bit before Carla turned up and she's reminded me of it ever since.

Enjoyed that quite a bit, but Capaldi is doing so much of the heavy lifting he must look like fucking Popeye with his shirt off.

Can't help thinking the name the Doctor chose for the Dalek wasn't a coincidence, and every time he used it it sounded like he was calling the Dalek a cunt. Or maybe that's just me.

Yeah, there's no way that was a coincidence.

I felt like there wasn't much tension, but Dr Who does dark Inner Space worked for me.

yeah. the strong points of this were slightly strange - and tension wasn't a strong point.

pictorial overlays of the doctor standing in front of a giant dalek eye while the universe was consumed and born in fire.

hallucinogenic warping of body shape as they went into the eye.

dalek stands in judgment of doctor.

doctor goodbye = muttering to himself as he slips out of the door (like the bit were he crept away furtively, with an expression almost of cowardice, from the soldier being attacked by the antibodies.)

aldo's point about the heavy lifting dead on tho. capaldi almost knocking out the balance of the show.

the laser guns were about as meaningfully effective in terms of excitement as they were in terms of killing daleks.

I thought this was okay, but it felt like a retread of "Dalek" from the first reason, right down to the Doctor's own morality being questioned. Didn't the Dalek in that episode also say "you're a good Dalek" to Eccleston?

A lot of things in this ep just didn't make sense to me... Like, why did they go inside Rusty in the first place? To determine how it became "good"? Couldn't they have just scanned its memory or something? The Doctor seems to know how dangerous it is inside, yet he's a-okay with this plan that might get them all killed? Why do the soldiers, who seem otherwise quite sensible and cautious, even suggest the plan in the first place? What do they even stand to gain to it? Okay, later on the Doctor says that maybe he can make all Daleks good, but that justification was only given after the fact.

Also, the Rusty just handily destroying all the other Daleks without them managing to fire a single shot at it felt way too convenient. And what's up with the Doctor's weird anti-soldier stance w/r/t refusing to take Journey with them? He's okay with hanging out with Rory the killer automaton, River the genetically engineered assassin, and Vastra the human-eating vigilante, but this seemingly decent person being a soldier is too much for him? I don't get it. Journey even proved she's not just following orders blindly, if that's what the Doctor is against, when she didn't blow them all up inside the Dalek.

really enjoyed that v much. emil.y & fizzles otm, basically everything that was consciousness-raising/warping acid trip inside analogue dalek body/mind was a++++. Hoping for a series full of stoner ethics chat + cool stuff to look at. And yeah, Capaldi hauling everything to the next level.

xp

yeah there were big holes in it I think. Is it setting up a DOCTOR/TEACHER/SOLDIER thing that'll run through? That's what it felt like. But internal plot-logic a bit frayed tbh.

They were definitely juxtaposing Danny Pink with the soldiers of the future. In the beginning of the ep Clara dismisses his soldier career almost as cruelly as Doctor does with Journey, but in the end she has learned her lesson (probably by watching that one soldier sacrificer herself for the rest of them), while the Doctor still hasn't.

Even though this time around they're emphasising that the Doctor is the same person, each Doctor does have a different set of personality traits, so I'm not sure I'd counterpoint the soldier-rejection now with previous companions.

I guess I could've accepted it if, you know, they'd given some explanation for why the Doctor doesn't like soldiers in particular. But they didn't.

Agreed that this felt way too close to the Ecclestone Dalek ep. Wasn't that one also the second after the introduction? It must be a contract obligation thing with Nation, right? Maybe they're just getting it out of the way early.

I'm watching how they're handling The Colin Baker Problem, which is that when they introduce an intentionally abrasive doctor to create contrast, they end up alienating the audience. I'm liking the moments of vulnerability ('please see me'/'am I a good man') but they seem unearned and come out of nowhere. (Capaldi is borrowing some of Tom Baker's jauntiness to relieve the tension but he's still closer to Colin or McCoy, I'm thinking, maybe.)

Capaldi's delivery for just about anything especially the Clara-baiting banter is hilarious ('well you don't look it! ... that's right, keep your spirits up')

The soldier theme is interesting, he's always had contempt for functionaries, bureaucrats, military types, we used to see this a lot with Tennant and going all the way back to Troughton - but they're really trying to make it A Thing, I don't think it's just a one-off for this ep. I'm not sure exactly where they're going with it. Agreed with Tuomas that this is not really convincing at the moment but if it's a themed arc maybe it'll congeal.

Nope, not the second ep, the sixth. Set in the futuristic year of 2012

I was lukewarm in this at first but I got well into it once it got going

The soul-mindmeld & reviving the memories was pretty good, def Ecclestonian as noted upthread but I don't think it stepped on that episode THAT much, did it? idk, my memory is shit so i am prob wrong (cue
"sic-ipedia" with detailed notes lol)

Capaldi bringing good grouchy intensity! honestly I get a little bit of Hartnell from him, ie there's no TIME for niceties ughhh grump grump

I guess I could've accepted it if, you know, they'd given some explanation for why the Doctor doesn't like soldiers in particular. But they didn't.

soldier rejection a rejection of himself (hence it's slightly willed and stubborn aspect) because if I'm remembering rightly Matt Smith was often described by others as a soldier (even as far back as the Tennant/Moffat Library double ep). fits in with a lot of the "I will not be that man again" existential stuff capaldi is going thru.

like emil.y I have no prob with this.

also war doctor was basically a soldier, no?

I thought the rejection of Journey Blue (or is it vice versa?)as a soldier might be a pelude to that actress returning as a non-soldier, maybe an alternative world version of the same character or something. But that might be rendered unlikely if Clara has already used that alternative selfs dispersed across time thing.

I wonder if that actress would make a good companion. I've enjoyed her in other things.

soldier rejection a rejection of himself (hence it's slightly willed and stubborn aspect) because if I'm remembering rightly Matt Smith was often described by others as a soldier (even as far back as the Tennant/Moffat Library double ep). fits in with a lot of the "I will not be that man again" existential stuff capaldi is going thru.

yeah I agree with this. They played with this idea a lot with 11 - "A Good Man Goes to War", the whole Doctor/Nurse/Soldier thing with Rory/Strax, the war doctor.

Looks like they've taken the criticisms about Clara's character being underdeveloped to heart - I like the renewed focus on her life on Earth, even if it does feel like they're overcompensating a bit.

I recognised the similarity with Ecclestone's 'Dalek' (though technically this still wasn't a good dalek so that isn't soooo much of an issue, still a little off, though), but also was going hey! Clara's already been inside a dalek - I mean, fair enough that she wouldn't know, as it wasn't actually Clara, but the Doctor doesn't remember that?

I wondered about that too - thought there would be a mention about how the last time he met a good Dalek, it turned out to be Clara. I still wish he had taken the Dalek Souffle version of her as a companion tbh.

I enjoyed that one a lot, the Dalek antibodies were my favourite bit. Capaldi really is excellent, given that Ecclestone was up til now my favourite nu-Who Doctor, I think I just like him to have a bit of gravitas.

Suspect that the Doctor isn't going to take to Clara's new boyfriend particularly well, but I'm enjoying the moral ambiguities at play here.

I also like it when the Doctor's a bit of a dick and Capaldi is extremely good at being a dick.