Another Canadian Icon Sullied (2014 Jian Ghomeshi sexual assault discussion)

A very brave & honest response.

Seems like everyone in Canada has a friend at the CBC or in the Toronto music scene who's all "no surprises" about this (I have). Yet despite tons of "let's be clear what this is about..." pieces in the last couple of days, this is the first I've seen from someone who really knows the guy, whose scene & fans overlap and is part of the same cultural establishment. Think there are really people who are bummed about it and reluctant to abandon Ghomeshi because they really liked his show. But this piece can maybe put it in perspective for some of those folks.

amanda palmer, noted fucking moron, weighs in: https://twitter.com/NotAllBhas/status/526745505863581696/photo/1

this is exactly how charisma works and why it is so hard to catch sexual abusers or even just regular bullies.

the state of BDSM in Canadian law

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/the-ghomeshi-question-the-law-and-consent/article21315629/?service=mobile

I've seen questions raised about that Globe piece (although I freely acknowledge that the author is an expert on the law and I am far from being one). The author does not cite the case she is referring to. Assuming she was talking about this case (R. v. J.A.), the ruling might not have stated exactly what she says it did ("when it comes to BDSM – or at least its more intense versions – the law doesn’t actually care about consent"): http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/7942/index.do

I'll quote a friend's summary, which seems to be supported by the text of the ruling afaict:

the defendant was convicted of assault for having inserted a dildo into the anus of his wife after erotically asphyxiating her into unconsciousness. She had consented to the asphyxiation, but not the dildo insertion. The lack of consent for the latter was the basis of the assault conviction. No where does the ruling declare that one cannot consent to assault for purpose of erotic pleasure. The SC did not, for example, charge JA of assault for the act of asphyxiation for which he had obtained consent

(Wikipedia summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._J.A.)

This seems like a good breakdown of his PR and legal strategy:
http://business.financialpost.com/2014/10/28/jian-ghomseshi-lawsuit-cbc/

TL/DR: He will drop the lawsuit. His team knows the lawsuit can't be won. It's only been filed to let him push his version of events and to intimidate other women from coming forward.

So cynical, what an ass.

It looks bizarre until you realize that what the lawsuit is really about isn’t winning in court: It’s about Ghomeshi being able to say whatever he wants in legal documents with total protection from being sued for libel himself, while intimidating women from going public with allegations of assault at Ghomeshi’s hands.

Now he eats humble pie

New interview, not one of the three in the article, and #5 on Current tomorrow.

http://www.cbc.ca/asithappens/features/2014/10/29/jian/

Brutal.

Transcript up on Gawker. Holy shit:

And when we were at his house it was fine, he put music on and I was looking at his living room and he had some interesting things in there, and again, we were flirty. But in that flirting he grabbed my hair again but even harder, threw me in front of him on the ground, and started closed-fist pounding me in the head. Repeatedly. Until my ears were ringing. And I started to cry.

Interviewer: Did you struggle?

Woman: No I was in shock. When you get hit in the head, everything rings and it's hard to do anything but try to... there was no conversation about anything and he didn't ask me if I liked to be hit, he didn't ask me... I wasn't expecting it, and he hit me repeatedly.

Interviewer: On the head?

Woman: On the head, on one side of my head over and over. And I'm on the floor and I'm in tears and he said, "You need to go."

I didn't say much at all, I got in a cab and cried all the way to my friend's place. I didn't even go home, I was a mess. I went to my friend's place and stayed at her house and cried all night.

Someone's gone public: Lucy DeCoutere

https://twitter.com/TorStarEditor/status/527631997045600256

Ugh.

8.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/10/29/jian_ghomeshi_8_women_accuse_former_cbc_host_of_violence_sexual_abuse_or_harassment.html

Hunh. Didn't know this:

"DeCoutere, who, when she is not acting on the television show, is a captain in the Royal Canadian Air Force in New Brunswick"

Tcote just posted this on Twitter:

Check out the @bigearsteddy account. These Jian Ghomeshi allegations were out in plain sight. Months ago.

https://twitter.com/bigearsteddy

The suit/quote pics in that article are weird imho - xxpost

ILX and its thread naming practices.

Female artists get thread titles like "cash cow or evil bitch" or "lauryn hill: still crazy" basically just for existing.

A well-known male media figure beats and abuses AT LEAST eight women, and it's "an icon sullied"? Really?

You ever want to think about either your thread title choices, or the thread titles you choose to revive to discuss what stories, a little more, maybe?

Branwell, I changed the Lauren Hill thread title a few months ago. Thought I changed the Cash Cow title at the same time, but apparently not. I'll ask for suggestions next time that thread gets bumped on its own.

As for this one, I totally agree that the thread title soft-pedals the conversation topic and would be okay with changing it to something else. You all sort that out and I'll make it happen.

To your credit, you did change that title. But to ILX's shame, it took ten years, in some cases, of those titles being created and standing as they were.

I mean, I'm trying to think of some word that encapsulates the ILX-meme-ness of e.g. "This summer's biggest racist" - but it says something about the English language that we don't really have a slur that indicates a man who serially assaults women. (I mean, there's "wifebeater" but all reports seem to indicate this guy feels comfortable doing it to strangers.)

I need to not be on this thread, because this topic makes me seriously angry. But I would really prefer if a title were chosen that indicated the seriousness of the topic.

Thanks in advance.

p.s. I just searched "courtney love" and no, "cash cow or evil bitch" has not been changed - and to even find that thread, you have to wade through 2 pages of search results calling her crazy, ugly, unflattering, etc.

I do think in that light, that ILX can do a little better than "sullied" for a guy who viciously assaults and batters women, then pro-actively smears them all over the press to save his 'reputation'.

you should take it up with the person who revived this thread rather than starting a new one

I agree that he's done a lot worse than sully his name, and I agree with changing the thread title now that Ghomeshi is the main topic (I was about to say dominant). As for this being the thread where it was revived to discuss Ghomeshi, at that time, we didn't know anything about what had happened, only that he'd been fired and was preparing a legal case of some kind. There was speculation that he might have said something politically offensive. This was the thread where the topic had been already planted, and there are few enough Canadians on the board that even as further details began to come out, it would have been hard to foresee it becoming something of much wider interest, warranting its own thread. In other words, I think you make a good point in pushing to have the title renamed, but I can excuse it not having been done much sooner.

'politically offensive' = what I meant to say was politically controversial, i.e. offensive to Conservatives

this thread is 8 years old Bran

Frogs:

You ever want to think about either your thread title choices, or the thread titles you choose to revive to discuss what stories, a little more, maybe?

I dunno, "consider the history of all ILX thread titles before creating/reviving a thread" seems a bit over the top. I believe the Moxy Fruvous thread was bumped as well as initially it was a bunch of "what's going on here?" instead of rushing to judgment (as we're all free to do now)

this thread is 8 years old Bran

And it seems like the title - about a different issue - was meant ironically?

Oh shit. I didn't even realize this guy was in Moxy Fruvous.

The name also includes a heavy metal umlaut, again hinting at the satirical when naming a band because though Moxy Früvous was known for crossing a very wide range of genres, heavy metal is not a genre most listeners of Moxy Früvous would associate with the group, thereby creating humor.

yeah I previously dubbed Moxy as the least likely band to ever use the word 'fuck'. obviously you can't tell a thing about a person based on the music they create but still, wow

I'd rather see the word "sullied" than "beats women viciously" when I click my SNA, me. That it's a double standard is otm of course

I've read a lot of pieces either saying outright "we'd all heard about Jian," or "many of us have Jian stories," or things along those lines. So does this mean there are people out there, many people, who knew or suspected he was doing this stuff and just stayed mum? Or winked about it with friends? Because for all these people who supposedly knew his MO, or thought him a major creep, there were apparently many victims who knew nothing and were lured in by his charms. Did he seek out people who had no idea? Or was part of his power trip knowing that people know about him?

I don't know the ins and outs of BDSM relationships, but how do these people meet? Is it just a matter of serially assaulting women until you find one who likes it? Or who you think likes it? Or does them not liking it have something to do with the relationship?

Read this by Dan Savage: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/10/29/interviews-with-two-women-who-dated-jian-ghomeshi

It goes into BDSM and how what Jian does is much different.

Don't know how many of you were affected and how deeply by this the last couple days, but many people I know in Toronto/Montreal have been completely fucked up by the public- and media- response. The way male-culture has responded, the way Jian's celebrity has coloured the discussion, not to mention how many survivors have been triggered into remembering that situation where nobody believes them. Three friends had panic attacks yesterday, ugh

@ Josh, most of the people I knew, the level of knowledge we had was basically the same level of knowledge that was exposed in that xojane piece, that he came on too strong and had lame pickup lines. Slimy stuff but nothing indicative of violent behaviour

I've read a lot of pieces either saying outright "we'd all heard about Jian," or "many of us have Jian stories," or things along those lines.

I wondered this too. Many people are saying "it was an open secret" but I guess it wasn't to these women

there's a difference between kink and assault as others have said.

Is it just a matter of serially assaulting women until you find one who likes it?

Josh, do you know many gay men?

ie, everything is easier since web.

i'm sure most people saying they heard rumours had no idea if there was much validity until very recently.

That Stranger hypothesis does seem like my "hit first, ask later" theory, which is deeply fucked up.

The psychology of much of this is totally foreign to me. I suppose I can see folks wanting to be degraded, or abused, to some extent. Or perhaps fantasizing about that. But who but a psychopath fantasizes about hitting someone? I guess it's a chicken and egg sort of thing - how would you know you liked to be hit or choked if people did not hit or choke, or vice versa - but I just can't square it.

One of the comments in this piece about the bear Twitter account:

Turned the bear around...that's where the camera was folks. The tweet says he had an extensive video library of his misdeeds. The cops should get those videos and arrest the little shit.

xpost to Branwell etc. As the thread-reviver, just want to say I do not disagree with you, but as jmmm mentioned, the revive happened before we knew anything about it. I doubt that anyone, even those who had heard what a sleazy reputation he had (I didn't hear this prior btw), would have suspected this.

This is a guy who starts his show with a and cloyingly sincere and concerned editorial about some world event was or Canadian cultural moment with suitably atmospheric musical accompaniment, searches for meaning in all of this & questions our identity in the world as Canadians. Basically does a spoken word version of Moxy Fruvos Gulf War Song EVERY FUCKING DAY then BAM, in the studio today its my great pleasure to introduce Zarqa Nawaz and Phoenix.

No way would I have thought this was what it was all about. My actual hunch was that he had gone too far on his editorial about the Ottawa shooting as a fuck off to the CBC, in a fit of serious depression about the death of his dad. So, yeah, change the thread title, it isn't appropriate. But your anger at ILX or any of the posters here is misplaced.

But your anger at ILX or any of the posters here is misplaced.p

otm. And thanks for the explanation, anything.

Er, everything. Fuck!

Wow.

You know, "I chose this thread to revive before the full details was known" was a perfectly adequate explanation.

Going on to tell me how I should feel, and who I should reserve what emotions for is seriously not OK, deeply patronising and about as far from "OTM" as possible.

I would have expected way better from you, how's life.

All I'm saying is not to be angry at each other.

The only person whose anger you can control is your own, right?

Going on to tell me how I should feel, and who I should reserve what emotions for is seriously not OK

he said your feeling of anger was misplaced in this instance. while the difference is admittedly subtle, his statement was descriptive, while your characterization is that it was prescriptive. it wasn't.

I can't be the only 29 y/o music-liking Ontarian who had to be reminded who Moxy Früvous are. I've probably heard them before, but it's amazing to me that they were Canadian platinum.

I do strenuously try to block out Can-rock and comedy rock and Canadian comedy rock.

This author seems to agree with you and makes some fair points imo: http://www.chatelaine.com/news/mansbridge-botched-marie-henein-interview/

The question about whether men are seen as traitors to their gender seemed exceptionally dumb to me. A better comparison would be about whether members of a visible minority group could be seen as betraying their community, which could definitely happen.

The Canadian version of O.J.'s many post-acquittal projects:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/jian-ghomeshis-ideation-project-marks-a-less-than-triumphant-return/article34654018/

He probably saw the pics of Casey Anthony at the Women's March and figured it was his time for a comeback too

god the title of this thread is the absolute worst

I can't tell whether it was originally about Gretzky or Keith's. Guessing the latter.

Sarah Polley speaks publicly about it:

Filmmaker Sarah Polley tells us why she's now embracing things that once kept her up at night — from why she didn't come forward in the trial of Jian Ghomeshi, to the trauma of her career as a child star.

Read more https://t.co/QC3KCIRKA5 and tune in on CBC Radio One at 9:10am

— CBC Radio: The Current (@TheCurrentCBC) February 28, 2022