Another Canadian Icon Sullied (2014 Jian Ghomeshi sexual assault discussion)

The name also includes a heavy metal umlaut, again hinting at the satirical when naming a band because though Moxy Früvous was known for crossing a very wide range of genres, heavy metal is not a genre most listeners of Moxy Früvous would associate with the group, thereby creating humor.

yeah I previously dubbed Moxy as the least likely band to ever use the word 'fuck'. obviously you can't tell a thing about a person based on the music they create but still, wow

I'd rather see the word "sullied" than "beats women viciously" when I click my SNA, me. That it's a double standard is otm of course

I've read a lot of pieces either saying outright "we'd all heard about Jian," or "many of us have Jian stories," or things along those lines. So does this mean there are people out there, many people, who knew or suspected he was doing this stuff and just stayed mum? Or winked about it with friends? Because for all these people who supposedly knew his MO, or thought him a major creep, there were apparently many victims who knew nothing and were lured in by his charms. Did he seek out people who had no idea? Or was part of his power trip knowing that people know about him?

I don't know the ins and outs of BDSM relationships, but how do these people meet? Is it just a matter of serially assaulting women until you find one who likes it? Or who you think likes it? Or does them not liking it have something to do with the relationship?

Read this by Dan Savage: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/10/29/interviews-with-two-women-who-dated-jian-ghomeshi

It goes into BDSM and how what Jian does is much different.

Don't know how many of you were affected and how deeply by this the last couple days, but many people I know in Toronto/Montreal have been completely fucked up by the public- and media- response. The way male-culture has responded, the way Jian's celebrity has coloured the discussion, not to mention how many survivors have been triggered into remembering that situation where nobody believes them. Three friends had panic attacks yesterday, ugh

@ Josh, most of the people I knew, the level of knowledge we had was basically the same level of knowledge that was exposed in that xojane piece, that he came on too strong and had lame pickup lines. Slimy stuff but nothing indicative of violent behaviour

I've read a lot of pieces either saying outright "we'd all heard about Jian," or "many of us have Jian stories," or things along those lines.

I wondered this too. Many people are saying "it was an open secret" but I guess it wasn't to these women

there's a difference between kink and assault as others have said.

Is it just a matter of serially assaulting women until you find one who likes it?

Josh, do you know many gay men?

ie, everything is easier since web.

i'm sure most people saying they heard rumours had no idea if there was much validity until very recently.

That Stranger hypothesis does seem like my "hit first, ask later" theory, which is deeply fucked up.

The psychology of much of this is totally foreign to me. I suppose I can see folks wanting to be degraded, or abused, to some extent. Or perhaps fantasizing about that. But who but a psychopath fantasizes about hitting someone? I guess it's a chicken and egg sort of thing - how would you know you liked to be hit or choked if people did not hit or choke, or vice versa - but I just can't square it.

One of the comments in this piece about the bear Twitter account:

Turned the bear around...that's where the camera was folks. The tweet says he had an extensive video library of his misdeeds. The cops should get those videos and arrest the little shit.

xpost to Branwell etc. As the thread-reviver, just want to say I do not disagree with you, but as jmmm mentioned, the revive happened before we knew anything about it. I doubt that anyone, even those who had heard what a sleazy reputation he had (I didn't hear this prior btw), would have suspected this.

This is a guy who starts his show with a and cloyingly sincere and concerned editorial about some world event was or Canadian cultural moment with suitably atmospheric musical accompaniment, searches for meaning in all of this & questions our identity in the world as Canadians. Basically does a spoken word version of Moxy Fruvos Gulf War Song EVERY FUCKING DAY then BAM, in the studio today its my great pleasure to introduce Zarqa Nawaz and Phoenix.

No way would I have thought this was what it was all about. My actual hunch was that he had gone too far on his editorial about the Ottawa shooting as a fuck off to the CBC, in a fit of serious depression about the death of his dad. So, yeah, change the thread title, it isn't appropriate. But your anger at ILX or any of the posters here is misplaced.

But your anger at ILX or any of the posters here is misplaced.p

otm. And thanks for the explanation, anything.

Er, everything. Fuck!

Wow.

You know, "I chose this thread to revive before the full details was known" was a perfectly adequate explanation.

Going on to tell me how I should feel, and who I should reserve what emotions for is seriously not OK, deeply patronising and about as far from "OTM" as possible.

I would have expected way better from you, how's life.

All I'm saying is not to be angry at each other.

The only person whose anger you can control is your own, right?

Going on to tell me how I should feel, and who I should reserve what emotions for is seriously not OK

he said your feeling of anger was misplaced in this instance. while the difference is admittedly subtle, his statement was descriptive, while your characterization is that it was prescriptive. it wasn't.

I can't be the only 29 y/o music-liking Ontarian who had to be reminded who Moxy Früvous are. I've probably heard them before, but it's amazing to me that they were Canadian platinum.

I do strenuously try to block out Can-rock and comedy rock and Canadian comedy rock.

I had seen their albums around but never heard of them (American). I just checked out a video and basically they are the Barenaked Ladies, right?

basically yeah

Now now, let's not sully any more Canadian icons.

Not my favourite Canadian comedy rock band of that era by any means (Corky and the Juice Pigs) but I did see Moxy Fruvous live way more times than necessary round about 1993ish (my wife liked them, we lived at the University in a town where few touring bands and they played often) and they were a good live band. These were They had some shtick that was fun and impressive. Once I heard their debut album I completely soured on them and don't think I've heard a song since.

Not my favourite Canadian comedy rock band

Uhhhhhhh

the venn diagram of "women who've had time for moxy fruvous" and "women who've had time for me" disturbed me before all this

dunno if i would have heard of them otherwise

Canadian comedy rock: a synthesis that is worse than the sum of its parts

I cannot objectively tell you which is better: "Be My Yoko Ono" or "The Only Gay Eskimo".

the images that the star is using seem kinda interweb tone-deaf to me

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/uploads/2014/10/29/1414636065605.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg

there are several like that in the story - it's like they're memeifying all the statements from the parties in the story

http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/uploads/2014/10/29/1414636024601.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg

yeah you'd think he was joel osteen pitching wisdom or something

It's almost like they're goading the seedier parts of the internet into turning this into another meme pic ("I don't know what happened, I never saw a thing" - Big Ears Teddy)

and yes, I'm sorry about that

I can't tell if Josh was being tongue-in-cheek about BDSM, but no, this is not at all how that works. The point is that the person who is subordinate holds the real power. They might have all kinds of physical or verbal things going on that make it look like they're subject to abuse, but they can stop it at any time. It's a reversal of the power dynamic.

With Ghomeshi, it really looks like he's a guy who is in a position of privilege and power and he's just doing what he wants without establishing any sort of precondition. If you're being physically or emotionally abusive without definitive consent and boundaries, and you're in power before things even begin, then you're just taking advantage of your position.

I guess I'll still rep for that first Moxy album but man did they blow everything on it

well, I mean a week ago I would've. I'd be way too creeped out by it now.

A few thoughts on this matter:

- in Canada there is no such thing as consenting-to-violence, so even if Jian had these women sign notarized consent forms it wouldn't have made a difference.
> I don't agree with this law, or maybe I do? but so many people certainly break it, with consent, which makes Jian's donning of that particular defence that much more disturbing, as it implicates family and friends who work in/engage in BDSM.

- physical and sexual assault claims are notoriously difficult to prove in court, and proceedings are intensely degrading to the victims; my mother, who works with battered women, says "filing charges" should be the second-least preferable resort (with staying silent being the least preferable).

What is intensely dispiriting to me (aside from the obvious) is the insistence all over the web that Jian needs be charged/proven guilty before anyone can pass judgement, as if people are incapable of dealing with systems of physical and sexual violence without the justice system getting involved.

Been interesting seeing a lot (hardly all) of clowns who had been going just like that either settle into quiet begrudging acceptance of what went down or else went into self-flailing mode shrieking that they were 'betrayed' by Jian's Sunday statement.

I'm frustrated that people needed the movie version of events instead of the journalism version

I can't be the only 29 y/o music-liking Ontarian who had to be reminded who Moxy Früvous are.

You might be just a little too young. They were huge for a minute in the mid-90s, with heavy MuchMusic play. I'm 35 and went to a school with a Gifted programme; I had to hear frequent singalongs of "The Drinking Song", "King of Spain", etc.

Fairly recently, some high school friends were posting the MF version of "Green Eggs and Ham" on FB.

Idle checks on his FB page show his 'likes' numbers steadily dropping. Not precipitously dropping (yet) but the spiral is in play.

There's a FB campaign to defriend him - a link going around that tells you which friends like him and you're supposed to ask them to defriend!

MF's actual moment in the sun, when they got lots of plays on Much Music etc was 1992-93. All the famous songs mentioned here (King of Spain, Green Eggs, Drinking Song, the one about Authors, Gulf War) were all on their 1992 demo cassette, when that was a thing in Canada- the Barenaked Ladies did an indie cassette that went gold. Their debut album which came out more than a year later had re-recordings and everyone was tired of them by then (plus the other, worse material of course). Why am I telling you this fact? To establish that you would have to be at least sentient by 1992 to have experienced their heyday.

Meantime Amanda Palmer has gone "Uh I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO." Kinda.

https://www.facebook.com/amandapalmer/posts/10152576179293375

Man, I know appearances are deceiving etc. but it's still tough to square this whole story with the guy who sang "My Baby Loves a Bunch of Authors".

xxpost -- Yeah I first heard of them thanks to the said tape in, I think, early 1993; a friend of mine down here had it and was all geeked out over it (in more than one way).

Annnd his (I gather) longtime PR firm has dropped him

https://twitter.com/rockitpromo/status/527926831572602880?lang=en

The point is that the person who is subordinate holds the real power.

But isn't there an inherent contradiction here? That what the person dominating gets out of it is thinking they have the real power? At least, I can see what you're saying applying to, say, a professional, like a pro dominatrix, where it is clearly a fantasy arrangement. But in the context of real world relationships, I just don't see how this can work without someone getting hurt, literally or figuratively. You need someone really hitting, or hurting, or whatever, to whatever degree, for there to be a sub under the illusion they have the "real" power. The sub can (or should) be able to stop things before things go too far, but the job of the dom is ... to push things too far, for real. Someone can say stop, but someone still has to hit or hurt first. It seems an untenable imbalance.