Serial - the podcast *spoilers*

we heard her raising it

quite loudly

Yeah, the fact that Jay got a lawyer from the police is massively fishy.

I really really don't think Adnan did it anymore.

it's obv problematic but i dont see how that particularly is massively exculpatory for adnan? like it makes you think theres like a conspiracy involving the da and police? that is crazy imo

nb i dont think he did it either

if adnan didn't do it, who do you think did?

do you think jay acted alone?

the serial killer/mystery person forcing jay to pin it on adnan theory makes no sense to me.

at the very least, jay definitely led the cops to her car - so he must have known something.

not being argumentative - genuinely interested in what makes people think adnan is innocent

Jay did it. Or whoever Jay met in the park in that timeperiod where he claims he was with Adnan but nothing about the phone records add up did it.

Jay did not do it

Why do you think Jay didn't do it?

no motive, too stoned to put in the effort

i think it's interesting that adnan hasn't played too much of the martyr - like, his prison story is v v different from what you normally hear. i would have expected him to really play up how miserable it is, but he does the opposite. it was really striking when after talking about what it's like, he sort of ended with "i have a life. it's not the life i may have planned, but i have a life". it's things like that, and when he's talking about how hard it's been on his family and there is the barest hint of a catch in his voice, that really make him compelling as an innocent party in all of this.

i don't agree that SK is biased towards adnan, but i think it's much easier to be on adnan's side when you hear so much of his story from his own mouth. as listeners, we don't know jay at all.

i'm looking forward to - hopefully - a full episode on the forensics of the case.

i started out being sympathetic to adnan but now I'm kinda like, yeah but that's what he NEEDS you to think & kinda take him with a grain of salt now

i honestly dk who did it, dont really think jay nec did but he prob knows who did if he didnt

im also not 100% adnan didnt like im maybe 85/15 he did not kill her; id be surprised but if there was like some smoking gun against him id be like welp ok

i'm pretty much 50/50 at this point. the intrigue sorta compensates for serial's occasional hackiness.

yeah I'm not invested as much in the whodunnit anymore as I was the first few eps because it's obv & frustratingly NOT about that even though it's pretending to be

but by the same token i am def on board with wherever the story goes

Yeah so the fact that he maybe asked for a plea is weird. I buy that a lot of people take pleas on crimes they didn't commit. It's harder for me to believe that he would under his circumstances. But who knows.

Strangely I've been finding myself not completely trusting syed based on something about the way he speaks. But these kinds of reactions are notoriously unreliable. Especially given that there's a confirmation bias problem if I'm already slightly leaning toward guilt

One question I do have: it seems like we're being fed that he's either telling the truth or he's a psychopath. Are those really the only options? Can't a non psychopathic person tell elaborate lies and maintain innocence if so motivated?

otm

everyone says what a great guy he is/was, he was popular and did well in school, he's maintained his innocence and been a model prisoner, he's agreed to be interviewed for serial and has been very compelling and believable... i really don't think that a normal person can pre-meditatedly murder their ex and do all this without being a clinical psychopath. which i don't think he is. i think a normal person would eventually break in some way, or there would be more stories about his "dark side" either way.

I imagine it's unlikely a psychopath would or even could cover for a single crime with 14 years' worth of "good behaviour".

So anyone who lies about a crime and doesn't change his story is a psychopath?

I think the thing Adnan is clinging to is that he did not premeditate the murder. So the case against him and the 1st degree conviction are false. There is a kernel of truth in everything he says. Jay is lying about some things. Adnan did not do any "real Hitler shit"

I don't think anyone did any premeditated murder. But if Adnan didn't plan it meticulously, it's impossible to fit him into Jays timeline and the phonerecords. Which is why I think Jay did it, or whoever he met in the park. In a fit of anger.

jay's timeline is bullshit

Fred I just think you're overlooking that it could be true that jay is lying and or misremembering parts of his story and still be true that adnan did it

This is why I have my doubts about the adversarial system of justice - you have two opposing parties each with potential motives to distort the truth, and I don't buy that grinding two lies against each other is a reliable way of discovering truth.

But when did Adnan do it? And how? It seems that Hae was killed in the middle of the afternoon, and I don't buy that Adnan and Jay was together at that point.

coming to Radio 4 Extra:

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/dec/05/bbc-radio-4-serial-sarah-koening-hae-min-lee

url had me thinking 'ouija board excusive' or something

http://www.funnyordie.com/articles/482049ca5f/serial-ball

What keeps you from believing Jay and Adnan were together that afternoon?
Adnan has no alibi or counter-narrative - and no-one else remembers being with him (except Asia McLain - briefly, and not entirely convincingly).

I don't believe Adnan called Jay from Best Buy, and there is no other convincing narrative for when they met, and when Jay dropped him off again. The call records don't match it.

There are other phones! And other parking lots! And you already believe Jay is a liar if you think he's the killer or the accomplice to someone he met in the park (?). I don't follow your logic.

Right, but when is the next incoming call? Jay had the car, the phone, the shovels. If Adnan's involved, he would have had to call his own phone. And it would show on the call list.

He could have been with Jay the whole time. He could have set up a rendezvous point in advance that didn't require a call. His could have been one of the many calls that day. Jay's a liar for sure - that doesn't exonerate Adnan.

But if Jay lies about this - and this is a pretty fucking huge lie, and complete needless as well - there is no evidence at all for Adnan's involvement.

But we don't know it's a lie! Why is the Best Buy call a lie again? Because the shoplifter is sure there was no pay phone there 15 years ago?

And even if Jay didn't call Adnan from Best Buy, there lots of other ways it could have happened that fit the general contours of Jay's story if not every insignificant detail.

Hae's body is where Jay said it was - and Adnan's cell pinged from in or near Leakin Park at a time when he says he has own phone, which is also the time that Jay says they were burying the body.

Also there's no evidence of Adnan's involvement - but no evidence of Jay's involvement either, so it's really just one guy's story against the others. But Jay's seem to line up with a bunch of stuff we can confirm (phone records, car, body, other witnesses like not-her-real-name-Kathy and Jenn Pusateri, the Nisha call) while Adnan's story doesn't line up with anything anyone else remembers, except Asia McLain - which he doesn't remember.

Hae's body is where Jay said it was -

he knew where her car was but i dont recall that he made any statements abt her body?

he said they buried her in leakin park, described where and how deeply etc

Jays story lines up - somewhat - eventually, after several different versions.

and adnan has no story, and nothing that corroborated his non-version of non-events

Jen is jays best friend and Kathy is Jens best friend, so their stories are not exactly without issues.

That's why I tend to believe Adnan - he has had a long time to work up a story and yet he hasn't.

did you believe Shaggy cause he said "it wasn't me"?

Kathy's story does not back up Jenn and Jays. And Jenns story doesn't really back up Jay's either - she says he stayed at hers until 3:45, which is obviously untrue. And the phonerecords doesn't backup Jays story either. Nisha doesn't back up Jays story either - what she describes would have happened weeks later. So really, the only thing that backs up Jays story is that he new the location of the car and the body. And how does that incriminate Adnan?

Xp dude it's ok to have a discussion or debate without involving OTT condescension.

i don't think there's anything that incriminates adnan, just as there doesn't seem to be anything that incriminates Jay other than what he's admitted to about the car and the body.

it really comes down to two guys' stories.

I'm inclined to think they're both lying - but I think Jay has told us a lot more of the truth than Adnan has so far.

xpost
sorry was shaggy thing was meant more jokingly than condescendingly

enjoying the discussion/debate