Serial - the podcast *spoilers*

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I guess... like I said, what's missing is a good hard look at what they've been implying since day one: that Jay is lying. Maybe impossible if he won't co-operate, but ultimately unfair if they never pick apart their own implications about Jay with the same rigour they applied to picking apart the state's narrative. I`ll shut up now, I`m repeating myself.

agree completely with that, frederik

There's a limit to how far you can interrogate Jay's story without his cooperation. I mean they have picked apart his story. But destroying that doesn't get you closer to figuring out what happened let alone exonerating Adnan.

Well, it should. Jay's story is the main evidence against Adnan. Take that away, and all else is just speculation.

It should legally or logically? I think legally sure (except of course Adnan's already been convicted so his legal remedies are limited by that). Logically I think most people still can't get over what was Jay's motivation to pin it Adnan if Adnan didn't do it. Jay appears to be the only one who can answer that question (or at least the only one the show's found who can) and so far he seems pretty set that even if he lied or was inconsistent in various tellings that Adnan was the one who did it.

right - and beyond that: if not Adnan, then who?

and if the strong implication is that Adnan is innocent

it follows that either Jay did it alone, or with a mystery person.

is it fair to put that implication out into the world without even asking the same basic questions they asked about the case against adnan?

Jay's last name and current home town are 2 seconds away on google. He has a kid. Is it fair to put out hours of storytelling into 5 million people's ears strongly implying the man might be a murderer without taking responsibility for doing so, or even really admitting that that is exactly what you're doing?

my vote for season 2 is SK tracks down Connie Converse

the story about Jay wanting to stab his friend so that his friend knows what it feels like was pretty o_O

I don't get the logic of that, AlexinSF. Either Jay told the truth, or he lied. So we take a look at evidence, they show that he didn't tell the truth. Ergo, he lied. The fact that it's weird he lied does not then turn it back into the truth again.

But the question is the wrong way around. The whole case should be based on physical evidence, first and foremost. What story does the phonerecords imply by themselves? How does that story fit with Adnans and Jays stories? And when I look at that, on the link I posted upthread, it def seem to fit more with Jay having done it by himself. It does not fit with the prosecutions story at all, and I have a hard time fitting Adnan into the murder-part of it at all.

the phone records are a mess - so i don't see how they clear anybody any more than they nail anybody... but in any case, Adnan's phone pings multiple times from Leakin park at the time Jay says they were burying Hae there, and at a time when Adnan says he was in possession of his own phone. but I think we went over this stuff last week.

I think the only thing the show has strongly implied is that the prosecutors timeline is completely wacky and that Jay's stories are totally inconsistent. That's probably enough for reasonable doubt in a murder trial, but it's a far cry from Jay=totally guilty and Adnan=totally innocent. If latter is what a listener has gotten from the podcast then I'd say that has more to do with them than anything in the podcast.

"Either Jay told the truth, or he lied."

It's not either or. It is totally possible that Jay told the truth about some things and lied about some other things. One of the things he might have told the truth about is Adnan killing Hae and him helping Adnan dispose of the car and the body.

xposts. from Frederik's link from last week:
The 7:09 p.m. and 7:16 p.m. calls are the two most significant calls in the case, because both calls were routed through L689B — which is the tower/antenna whose range is almost exclusively limited to the southwest leg of Leakin Park, where Hae was buried.

The problem with Jay doing it by himself is 1) there is no motive as far as I can tell for Jay doing it all and 2) he hung out at various times with Abnan the entire day and 3) managed to do various things that incriminated Abnan in the process. If the lady from the Innocence Project thinks that Sarah getting hooked with a charming psychopath well if Jay did it all by himself then he's basically charming psychopath X master criminal X a 1000.

"hooked with a charming psychopath is unlikely"

oh i think the show has definitely made a case for Adnan's innocence based on his character before and after the crime - it's a huge theme throughout the show, every episode comes back to it.

totally agree - and am inclined to believe - big chunks of Jay's story are bullshit and big chunks are essentially true

I think I'll just wake up this morning make Adnan think I need his car to buy a present for Stephanie then go kill his ex-girlfriend and frame him for it then we'll smoke pot and then hang out some more then I'll tell my friend Adnan did it then wait six weeks yes PURE GOLD!

Oh and I won't bother to keep my story straight after that because who cares of course everyone's going to believe Adnan did it why because I am super trustworthy.

As crazy as the prosecutions timeline is at least there is ring of sense to the whole thing... jealous teenage dude enlists ne'er do well friend to help dispose of body of murdered girlfriend, behaves in totally irresponsible teenage manner while doing so.

Jay being like "sure whatever I'll help you dispose of the body and car" is actually the most really why would he do that? But ironically that's the part of the story that's actually corroborated by Jay!

and it just doesn't seem that far-fetched to me - there are zillions of true crime article every month about teenage killings where a bunch of kids knew or helped cover it up for no particular reason other than they were hanging out that day

zillions/every month maybe overstatement but you know what i mean

The only chunk of Jays story that doesn't ping out is everything at the time of the actual murder...

If Jay did it, he prob met Hae coincidentally - he was in Adnans car, so would make sense. Something happened, he snapped. That is the main reason I'm inclined to believe Jay did it at this point: you can construct a timeline for him doing it completely without psychopathy. Just severe anger issues, and he def seems to have that.

Yeah that's true. It's mostly wtf from a rational adult level. For a teenager maybe not that far fetched..

same could be said of adnan re: just snapping, right?

also we don't necessarily know the time of the actual murder - we just know the approx time she left school and approx time she should have been picking up her cousin

Like, it's not 'inconsistencies'. The whole part of his whereabouts while the murder happened were obviously made up.

And the phone records aren't 'a mess'. They're just phonerecords. It's just that Jay and the prosecution has lied about them, makes it all weird.

And I don't think there is time for Adnan to snap. The whole timeline of the prosecution only fits together with Adnan planning it exactly to get the alibi he wanted.

He met Hae coincidentally in Adnan's car then snapped and killed her and then somehow arranged by himself to dispose of her car and her body and hang out with Adnan and frame Adnan and all by his lonesome and then he's just living the rest of his life like a normal dude. Yeah no sorry that's charming psycho x master criminal x a 1000 plus just insane luck to boot.

"Hey Adnan you don't mind driving with your phone and me over to Leakin Park for a little. Maybe someone will call us. Just hang out hear for a second while I drive your ex-girlfriends car over here and dispose of her body."

everything alex in sf is saying is basically why i decided many episodes ago that adnan did it

yeah, same here. I don't understand the "timeline doesn't allow for adnan to do it" argument when you think the jay/prosecution timeline is bs anyway.

No. Adnan asks him to take car and phone. Because of Adnans car, meets Adnans ex, snaps, kills her. Has Adnans car and phone, arranges to get rid of body with it, further incriminating Adnan. Takes car and phone to Adnan, hangs out with him. Adnan gets stoned, steals Adnans phone, buries Hae, brings back Adnans phone. Really, apart from the phonething, which is kinda smart, the rest makes sense.

lol no way maybe in a work of fiction

You're forgetting that he's also telling his best friend at this exact time "oh by the way Adnan was wut done it".

How exactly is he getting both Hae's car, Hae's body, Adnan's car and Adnan's phone to all these places by himself again? Also dude is out of control in your mind to snap and strangle Hae, but somehow coldly and methodically covers up crime and again frame's acquaintance (coincidentally ex-bf of girl he killed in out of control fugue state) immediately after? Yeah that's not at all implausible.

yeah don't see it, nice effort though! better than I could have come up with

The problem is, if Adnan called for Jay, we can look at incoming calls. There is 2:36, which the prosecution focuses on. That one does not work with snapping. 3:15, which does not work either (it's explained on the Serial blog why). And then the next one is 4:27, def while Adnan is at track - he calls to be picked up at 4:59. So Adnan would have to have killed Hae before 2:36, and that does not fit.

There are also several calls to people from the I-88 at 3:48 and 3:59 to unidentified people. Could be Jays friends who helped him dispose of the body.

And again: He could frame Adnan because he had car and phone. Same thing that could have made him meet Hae.

Also, those two incoming calls at Leakin park? They come right after an outgoing call to Jenns pager. And we know Jenn helped Jay cover it up (she admitted it, and several of other things she said that helped Jay does not fit)

And there is nothing 'immediate' about the way Jay covered it up. Adnan had to hurry, he had to be at track. If Jay did it we get another hour for the killer to get his shit together.

Def. while Adnan is at track in what world again? Maybe I'm mis-remembering where it was established that he was definitely there.

So just to be clear: in your mind it is most believable that Jay kills Hae sometime before 4:58, leaves her body and car somewhere random (or maybe calls friend and speedily disposes of both), picks up Adnan at track, drives around with him for a while, goes to Kathy's house, gets stoned, then somehow gets his phone to Leakin Park (then way way later I guess disposes of both car and body with a friends help) then calls Jen they meet up "hey what's up Adnan killed Hae" waits six weeks and then changes story umpteen times on way to a conviction of Adnan.

All the incoming calls argument suggest is that Jay's story about getting a pick-up call from Adnan doesn't check out for a couple of times.

It doesn't rule out that they could have been together the whole time. They could have pre-arranged a meeting place and time. The pick-up call could be one of the later unidentified calls if there even was a pick-up call.

If the timeline cooked up by Jay and the cops is really suspect, as Serial has convincingly argued, why look to it for proof of anything?

Also - no-one remembers Adnan being at track if I recall correctly. Doesn't mean he wasn't there - but there's no "Adnan had to be at track" at time x or y if we don't know he was really there.

All the while Adnan's just like none the wiser "aw shucks thanks for picking me up man. You ain't acting at all suspicious either."

Well, both Jay and Adnan says Adnan was at track, there is an incoming call at 4:58 which tracks perfectly with Adnan calling to be picked up. If Adnan wasn't at track, then we should just stop looking at evidence and testimony at all. Like, it's one thing that every part of the case agrees on: Adnan eventually made it to track.

And why on earth would Adnan had given his new cell phone to Jay if it wasn't so he could make the pick-up call? The phone is with Jay, it's not at Woodlawn while Adnan is at school.

Like, that is what looking at the phone records give us: Adnan's phone is with Jay. Q: Why would it be with Jay? A: So that Adnan could phone him no matter where he was.

Most likely reason for Jay's changing story is that he's actually a lot more complicit in arranging and covering up the murder than he's letting on. And all the permutations of the stories are to hide that and enable him to escape a long accessory to murder sentence.

What could he possibly have done that he hasn't admitted to?

Apart from killing Hae on her own, of course.

His own. Sorry.

He could have been much more involved in planning, covering up the murder than he's indicated thus far. In fact as the stories basically eventually moved more towards him being an active participant.

That is extremely vague and useless.

Watch Rope.