Serial - the podcast *spoilers*

series would have been all killer no filler if they'd stuck to 10 shows (maybe slightly longer episodes) and jettisoned some of the stuck in the weeds stuff of 8-11

yeah i think "big picture" just meant let's see what the DNA yields and start all over again
but it did come off badly in the show

I find the possible serial killer angle v interesting

And there are surely ways that killer could be connected to Jay - at least if you're regularly going to the strips to buy weed you're encountering criminals and a percentage of those are going to be violent

Yes true lot of serial killer rapists buying weed.

Not what I said

Sorry serial killer rapists just happen to be hanging around near people buying weed. Percentages.

Irritated we never found out anything about Patrick and Phil.

Just saying it's plausible for one criminal - yeah, in this case a serial killing rapist like the cat the innocence project dug up – to be around other criminals, due to things like prison connections, having experience and looking for work, etc, etc.

If Jay and Adnaan then go to the strip to pick up weed - something that was implied when they tracked the cellphone's location towards the end of this last episode - that provides a possible point of contact

I dunno, is that such a crazy picture of how things work in Baltimore, I mean am I missing the fixed, impermeable barrier that exists between people who deal weed and people who kill people

slippery slopes

Now that this is over, I'd kind of like to see what stuff was left out for whatever reasons. Like, I had no idea that Adnan got married and divorced while in jail until today. Not that it has any bearing on the case, but was it left out of that Adnan-in-prison segment because it made him look bad (seduction and manipulation of women from within the walls of a prison,) or because it was too difficult to deal with for no lucrative reason?

i think the prospect of another person having done this and employed jay to help him is ridiculous but what cardamon is saying is not that dumb. the guy wasn't just a rapist, he was a serial burglar. burglars are everywhere and almost all burglars are drug users first. it wouldn't be so laughable to think he would come across someone like that somewhere. i mean he started work at a *porn store* just after this. i just don't believe he did cross paths with that person and then agree to bury a body for him.

i missed adnan married and divorced, where did that come from?

100% of all itinerant murderers buy porn on DVD

murderburglarers

lol

Not what I said

― cardamon, Thursday, December 18, 2014 7:26 PM (1 hour ago)

i missed adnan married and divorced, where did that come from?

Adnan's best friend did an AMA

Yeah I don't actually know what the chain of events would be w/Jay and the third party, just there's a possible connection as opposed to no possible connection

the scenario would basically be a serial killer/burglar asking Jay to find him a girl to kill (but not rape, even though that's his MO) and then to make sure to ask the girl's ex-boyfriend for use of his car and phone so that incriminating evidence could be manufactured for the future framing.

I was thinking more along the lines of Jay ending up knowing something about the murderer, and being so afraid of telling cops what he knows, that he comes up with a way to frame adnaan or something?

even in that case it's weird that Jay would just happen to have Adnan's phone and car at around the time this other dude was killing Adnan's ex

Yeah

The extra difficulty for me, and I don't know if any other uk ilxors found this too, is working out what people's relationships are - like what specifically does 'high school friends' or 'dating' or 'hanging out' mean in Baltimore in 1999

Is Adnaan a close friend of Jay's or more like a contact etc

dating means frenching, hot tubs

+get really lucky that adnan is completely unable to muster any type of alibi. xpost

Adnan is a very smart dude and his claim of not remembering or mentally 'bookmarking' the events of that day is hugely contradictory to his character. SK does well to highlight this, and it bears a lot of repeating imo.

Anyway it's a travesty that Adnan was convicted, most of us seem to agree.

dating means frenching, hot tubs

was about to make adnaan/ariane joke remembered that ariane is a real person out there in the world

xpost I would agree that if a were a juror and the defense presented a year's worth of research dedicated to knocking holes into a case the prosecution seemingly spent a couple of weeks on, then, yeah, I probably would have ad reasonable doubt.

However, even without the benefit of a 12 part prosecution-biased investigative podcast I still believe that Adnan is guilty and am glad he was convicted.

i forgot about adnan saying "you're pathetic" to jay as he took the stand. that was really chilling and damning to me. feels like a mask slip.

am I crazy or was SK saying that this footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OQ6Vlv9h-U

was shot the day that Hae was murdered? Surprising that no one is speculating about some camera crew guy as the real killer

I think it shown that day, not shot that day.

i forgot about adnan saying "you're pathetic" to jay as he took the stand. that was really chilling and damning to me. feels like a mask slip.

The reason I mentioned relationships is like, is their friendship such that, if Adnaan frames Jay or vice versa, that's going to be difficult, or are they dispensable to each other. In other words the depth of their friendship seems like it affects the likelihood that they would frame one another

Another thing is - you know how if you're innocent, but you plead guilty, you get less prison time than if you plead innocent. And therefore, why would a guilty Adnaan maintain his innocence?

That's been bugging me, but then if you're Adnaan and the community is a big part of your life, once you've admitted guilt, your reputation in that community is shot and though you might get out of prison sooner, you've basically got no life?

Adnan said he wanted a plea deal but his lawyer never pursued it

I'm still struggling with this venn diagram of burglars, porn stores, dudes who buy weed, serial murderers, honor student lacrosse players conveniently driving up while an accessory happens to have their boyfriend's car/phone.

If someone could even come up with a semi-reasonable fantasy for why Jay would either kill Hae or assist someone else in killing Hae and then blame Adnan I'd be willing to at least consider it, but until that occurs all these "well maybes" about "serial murderers" and "lost DNA" strike me as a bit ridiculous. It's the one thing Koenig doesn't even try to explain because there is really only one credible explanation....

Two possible explanations:

1) His family and friends would be hurt.

2) His community contributed a lot of money to him and would be betrayed.

Also I think it's highly unlikely that if Adnan confessed now it would benefit him much vis-a-vis parole (given that this is 1st degree). The window for him being able to reasonably plea to a lesser sentence ended up being pretty small.

Dealers on the strip need friendly faces in high schools so they can sell weed to the wealthier but more timid suburban high school kids

Adnaan and Jay get enlisted in this

Something goes wrong

???

At trial they don't mention it because that would be snitching, they could get not just sent to prison but stabbed whilst there?

xp

I don't buy this innocent people always say they're innocent thing either sadly. Maybe I've followed too many true crime things, but it feels like there are enough people who are probably guilty who continue to say they're innocent to the bitter end (Jeffrey MacDonald springs to mind to return to Fatal Vision) that this is far from the truism the Innocence Project would have you believe.

"Something goes wrong"

I liked the story earlier where Jay did it all by himself and was the master criminal better.

xps to cardamon:

adnan and hae and some other key ppl like krista were all in a small magnet program and were close friends. jay was a year older and out of school, but dating steph, who was also in that same program and friends with them all. jay and adnan were basically just weed-smoking buddies, not close friends.

xp I mean, I've got nothing that properly adds up. However, even in my own life I've known very 'ordinary nice people' go from sometimes taking drugs, to doing a little bit of 'friendly face' dealing for a serious gang, to getting in way over their heads and either they are endangered or people in their life are endangered

justin thanks, that's cleared it up a lot

the speculated motive for jay being the murderer, that SK never brought up bc obv there was no evidence for it, was that Hae knew jay was cheating on steph and was going to tell her. IF there was evidence that this was true, i'd find it a compelling motive.

My favorite part of the episode:
Is this just a routine case were applying intense scrutiny to? We asked a guy we're paying to look into it and he said no.

xp Motive for a confrontation that becomes violent and results in killing, rather than motive to want to kill someone though right?

the story that the co-worker told got me thinking that maybe it wasn't adnan but someone else/some others in adnan's religious community who killed hae and enlisted jay's help. it's totally far-fetched, but the way jay kept talking about these "people" who were after him and being so terrified... it just seemed weird.

if that was the motive, the murder must have been reasonably premeditated, considering all the circumstantial evidence.

xp

the speculated motive for jay being the murderer, that SK never brought up bc obv there was no evidence for it, was that Hae knew jay was cheating on steph and was going to tell her. IF there was evidence that this was true, i'd find it a compelling motive.
--just1n3

Speculated motive on reddit.

the speculated motive for jay being the murderer, that SK never brought up bc obv there was no evidence for it, was that Hae knew jay was cheating on steph and was going to tell her. IF there was evidence that this was true, i'd find it a compelling motive.
--just1n3

Speculated by reddit.

I think maybe the implication was that Adnan had tried to scare Jay by invoking this kind of Pakistani community mafia that would come after him if he betrayed Adnan