Serial - the podcast *spoilers*

even if Jay did really say "I'm feeling so much animal rage right now" (so believable!) to the two idiots who just bumrushed his family--it was SK's decision to play that post-ambush giggle-fest for an audience of millions after Jay had declined to be taped. It totally played as "Look at how brave we are! Two white girls entering the cave of this black monster who wants to bite our heads off!"

Isn't the Adnan kills Hae scenario basically just:

Adnan decides to kill Hae.
Adnan gets ride from Hae ~2:30.
Adnan kills Hae sometime/somewhere before 3:25 or so.
Adnan calls Jay either @ cell or Jenn's house or Jay's own house using a payphone.
Jay picks up Adnan at 3:30.
They drive around (doing things or not) and then drop off Adnan at track.
Jay picks up Adnan at track at ~5.
They go to Cathy's house ~6.
They bury the body in Leakin Park around ~7.
They drop off Hae's car after.
They go separate ways, etc, and Adnan goes to mosque and starts using his phone again.

How exactly does this not fit the "evidence"?

No it does not fit. And it's up to you to make it fit, so please do so.

Sorry missed the part where you explained how it doesn't fit?

The NVC interviews are not great, but otoh, hey she got them to talk, more than SK can say. Also, they'll never be good enough to satisfy camp Adnan.

x-post: I didn't. It's not my job. But it doesn't.

And it's not about the interview being 'Gotcha'. The Serial crowd is really impasssioned - obviously - so publishing interviews where you allow your subjects to say untruth after untruth, and even repeating a few of them yourselves, is just a bad idea. People has begun repeating all the false things that is said, and using it to attack Sarah Koenig and the other producers. Even though it's provably untrue.

Actually Adnan was convicted with that scenario so basically yeah now it is your job to prove it sorry.

It's your job to prove Obama was elected President

No he wasn't. He was convicted on 2:36 scenario. And I'm not a lawyer, so no, even if he was, it's still not my job. I asked you to make up a story that fit the evidence, you didn't even mention any evidence, it's not my job to list it all for you. Of course, it's not your job to make such a story, it was just something I asked you to do. But you haven't.

Also, the interviewer from TheIntercept didn't get Jay to talk. He reached out to her. No work having been done there.

He was convicted of murdering Hae. 2:36 is not an element of the crime. If it turns out to be at 2:58 or 3:26 or 1am none of that would be a basis for overturning the conviction. I too would like to know why there is no possible way that that scenario could fit. All of the "debunkings" I've heard require assumptions about the accuracy of certain memories vs other ones. If you don't feel like doing that, I will continue to feel comfortable with my conclusion that there is absolutely not even a shred of evidence that Jay did this, leaving the only possible conclusion that Adnan did it.

Wtf you didn't mention any evidence either with your asinine story. The whole point of what I thought you wanted was someone to provide a story that fits the evidence which is the phone calls/tower hits and Jay's testimony that Adnan did it, showed me body, we buried it in Leakin Park and got rid of the car. The story above does that and it also makes about a million times more sense than the bullshit "Jay just killed her and then hung out with Adnan for the rest of the day".

I would like to see even one example of a case where a teenager strangled a mere acquaintance to death over an off the cuff argument fwiw.

Shot or stabbed, maybe. Strangled?

I don't need the story to fit Jays testimony. Obviously no story would do that, since he lies over and over and over. I just need a story that I feel makes sense of the cellphonerecords. And I don't think your story does. I'm guessing your using 3:15 call? So, after Adnan calls and says that he killed Hae, Jay's response is to phone Jenn? And Adnans response on getting his phone is calling Nisha? And then Jay also calls Phil and Patrick for fun ten minutes later? And the last phonecall before Jay turns home is at 4:12, after Adnan would have gone to track, but it's all of a sudden far further to the east, but still nearby where Jay says the body was stacked.

My story fixes that. Jenn call at 3:21 is ok, because nothing has happened. Nisha call buttdial while murder takes place. Calls to Phil and Patrick to get help/rides, because Adnan wasn't there. And 4:12 call is no problem, because Adnans track-practice isn't involved. On top of that, this story actually makes sense of Jay's lies right away, including his stubborn insistence that he was at Jenns house until 3:40, which would be just enough to give him an alibi.

It's an asinine story. Because something asinine happened. Wouldn't be the first time in the history of the earth. Until I get better explanations of how the evidence fits with Adnan being the killer, I'm going to go ahead and believe the story that fits the evidence best, even though it has no motive. And I honestly don't care if you care.

the main thing ive taken away from all this is never get a lawyer with a weird screechy valium voice

Also, if you are likeable def take the stand. You're sure to charm some of the jurors

You're using a lot of unwarranted assumptions - for example you're not giving any good reason why he couldn't have called jenn 6 mins after the come get me call, you're just conjecturing that it doesn't seem like what you think someone would do.

xpost i think there's a lot to that, average joe listening to hour after hour of shrill lawyer lady drone on vs well-turned out polite young man. get in that backroom, make a decision, gtfo

I'm asking for explanations of the calls. In my story, every call is explained. In your story, every call is 'well, it COULD happen'.

like in this thread, started reading it undecided then alex in sf bowls up acting like a sneery arsehole to people and boom, im 100% jay did it

Exactly! (and also, please don't read further down...)

WOO HOO FREE ADNAN!

Pretty sure I've only acted sneery towards Fred B who I think other folks have had some uh issues with too, but I think this is my probably my queue to beat it either way.

Last. One thing that is weird though right is that I think everyone hearing those tapes that I've interacted with has been ugh Gutierrez sounds terrible but that's just her right? I mean she didn't get shrill and annoying just for this one trial. And she was obviously a pretty successful attorney so either this tone matters less than us listeners think or just bad luck for Adnan that in this trial she came off particularly bad.

I have to wait in a queue to beat it now? RIP America.

dunno alex, your whole "a drug dealer would cross paths with a violent criminal? PSCHAW! RIDICULOUS" patter was pretty grating too

the intercept article with urich is infuriating. the entire intro accuses sarah koenig of having an agenda, but then immediately before the interview begins, it claims that this was definitely not a case where the justice system failed. so of course everything urich says is going to be presented as incontrovertible fact when the interviewers admit in the introduction to the interview that the case is clear cut and adnan is guilty. aside from the whodunnit, i can't understand how the entirety of serial doesn't at least throw into some doubt the basis on which adnan was *convicted* (not necessarily that he did or didn't do it). i didn't read the actual interview, since it seemed to me like the equivalent of inviting mike huckabee on fox and friends to explain why he's not a homophobe or something.

I'm going to go ahead and believe the story that fits the evidence best, even though it has no motive.

The story that fits the evidence best, however imperfectly, is that Adnan killed Hae. There basically is NO evidence of Jay killing Hae. Zero. No testimony, no physical evidence, no DNA, no circumstantial evidence beyond the most speculative kind. You are looking for some kind of airtight CSI-style theory of everything that happened that day in order to believe that Adnan was the killer, and you prefer a wholly fictitious airtight theory with no basis in evidence to a flawed one based in reality.

There is no evidence of anyone killing Hae, other than what Jay says. And when I look at what Jay says, it looks like someone who lies, and is covering something up, which probably happened right around the time he insists he has an alibi for. Which is right around the time of the murder. So to me, what little evidence there is, points to Jay being involved. Not Adnan.

(and the cellphonerecords clearly lead to Jay, not Adnan, as well. I mean, it was what literally led the police to Jay, so it isn't really in question)

But we've been over his over and over and over, and I don't really care if anyone believes me on this. I'm more engaged by these shitty new interviews, and ytth's otm there. And of course Free Adnan, nobody should be in jail for fifteen years for a murder committed when they were a minor, and especially not in a case with as much doubt as this one. That is separate from the question of guilt, though.

nobody should be in jail for fifteen years for a murder committed when they were a minor

how long should a 17 year old who strangles a girl to death serve?

I mean, if he were proveably guilty with all the pings timelining up and all

Well, lifetime in Denmark is generally 14 years for adults.

'Nobody' might be too strong a word. He would probably be granted parole right about now. Anybody with Adnan's behavorial record in prison shouldn't serve more than 15 years for murder.

BTW, in your pet theory, why doesn't Hae show up to pick up her cousin, and where do she and Jay meet, and what kind of argument leads him to strangle a mere acquaintance on the day he just happens to have borrowed the acquaintance's recent ex's car? And how does Jay get Hae's car to its final resting place, and why aren't his (or Jenn's or anyone else's of interest) fingerprints found in Hae's car?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LVMU5SPFd9c/TPROIkfmewI/AAAAAAAAC_Q/cdQOn2MOuG4/s400/Frank%2BDrebin.jpg
And where the hell was I?

Well, since nobody ever bothers taking any of my questions seriously, I'm sorta inclined to just go 'none of that really matters, lol, you idiot'

But ok, I'll bite. brb.

Fred, I'm in complete agreement with you on the facts and am loathe to admit it because of the attitude you drip with in every post itt. Maybe reducing that somewhat would get your questions addressed less flippantly more frequently.

Jay and Hae meeting up that day isn't too hard to imagine. She smoked pot. He sold it. The two of them were acquinted through Adnan and Stephanie. If she wanted to reach him she would have.

But why would she be buying pot from him after the time where she was supposed to pick up her cousin and failed to show up? The responsible star student just doesn't bother to pick up her little cousin so she can buy weed?

Well, sorry HOOS, but I've been trolled over and over from Alex, attacked personally constantly, and nobody has told him to stop until a little while ago, even though everyone has been happy to tell me when I've got a shitty attitude. Go back and read, I didn't start this attitude. I am a bit annoyed at the guys I'm discussing with, I don't think they've been very fair.

Like, why isn't that photo man alive just posted bad atitude?

that was self-mockery, not you dude

Because she stopped to buy it on her way to picking up her cousin and then something went down? C'mon, that's easily as believable as Adnan killing his ex right before he knew she would be reported missing if she didn't pick up her cousin. At least acknowledge that it would have been a viable theory to pursue for the police at the time. But instead they went to lenghts to make Jay's story work even when it clearly didn't.

But Frederik's theory, to which I was responding, has Hae dying after the time she's supposed to pick up her cousin.

that's easily as believable as Adnan killing his ex right before he knew she would be reported missing if she didn't pick up her cousin

But this theory matches up with people hearing Adnan asking Hae for a ride, giving him an opportunity, which is far more significant than whether he thought through when she would get reported missing.

At least acknowledge that it would have been a viable theory to pursue for the police at the time.

We don't know to what extent police pursued any theories involving Jay though. We know (at least I think we know) that they didn't turn up his prints in Hae's car. We can assume that they didn't hear anything in the interviews with Jay that made them suspect Jay. We also can assume they didn't get anything from anyone else they interviewed that made them suspect Jay. It's possible they were complete boneheads, of course. But I don't know why people are assuming Jay was never looked at, that the cops never discussed the possibility that it was really Jay. I would think it would be pretty standard to at least consider that your sole witness is actually the killer.

"but I've been trolled over and over from Alex, attacked personally constantly, and nobody has told him to stop until a little while ago"

Haha yeah it's been all me you were just responding in kind. Keep living the fantasy dude.

So I broke it up.

1) why doesn't Hae show up to pick up her cousin,

Well, you lead off with the very best question. My theory solves all the problems with the cellphones, but it does so by moving the murder forward by 15 min or so, putting it over the 'deadline' where Hae had to pick up her cousin. Keep in mind, though, since the 2:36 call has been discredited, we're only talking about 15 min. And the 3:15 murder theory can't really explain this as well, if Hae was giving Adnan a ride at this point, she was probably late even so. My best explanation is that Hae had something to do - keep in mind, everyone who said that Adnan asked for a ride also says that Hae said no - got delayed, was on her way to pick up her brother when she ran into Jay. Which leads to the next point.

2) and where do she and Jay meet,

Well, somewhere around Woodlawn, that's where the cellphone is. It isn't really important, and impossible to know, really. Best Buy, still? Hae doesn't meet up with Jay for anything Jay-related, she sees Adnans car, goes over to say hi.

3) and what kind of argument leads him to strangle a mere acquaintance on the day he just happens to have borrowed the acquaintance's recent ex's car?

Impossible to know. My guess? Since it was Stephanies birthday, something Stephanie-related. Which, btw, is also the reason Jay was in Adnan's car, so it isn't really that big of a coincidence. But impossible to know.

4) And how does Jay get Hae's car to its final resting place,

Obviously, he drove there (I might be missing the point of this question) But btw, according to the cellphonerecords, after the two incoming calls at Leakin Park, the next two calls are outgoing, to Jenn, from right around the 'final resting place' of Jay's car. So if we're discussing the final moving of the car, once again, the evidence points to Jay.

5) and why aren't his (or Jenn's or anyone else's of interest) fingerprints found in Hae's car?

And this question isn't really a problem for my theory. Because Adnan's fingerprints weren't found in Hae's car either. Actually, this supports my theory, because in my theory, the murder took place in Adnans car. Everything in Hae's car happened after the murder took place, so the murderer would know to be careful.

Adnan's fingerprints were found in the car, it was just not necessarily that significant since he had been in the car lots of times.

They were found on an atlas. Which, you know.