whiplash

His playing in those Krupa/Rich battle records is dope.

If anything I think the thing that makes him not get mentioned as a canon jazz drummer as often as others is sort of a combination of his attitude and his marketing -- he simply chose to go the route of promoting himself as a kind of musical wonder rather than an "artist," and treated drumming as though it were an ongoing competition to be the "top." His playing itself is very swinging and musical and generally enjoyable, even though the bands he put together eventually got kind of boring.

I like what he did in the Nat King Cole - Lester Young trio (easily my favorite playing of his), and he's refreshingly unobtrusive on the Bird records. But apart from those, I can't stand him.

he's also very tasteful on the 'Ella & Louis' record, which nobody mentions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ella_and_Louis#Personnel

but yeah i get that it's mostly due to his image, the famous bus tapes, etc.

in terms of its lack of realism or how dissimilar it was to other people's jazz education, IMO it's totally plausible that there are people out there for whom playing big band jazz is about playing it super tight and fast and having sick chops. the insistence in that new yorker piece that jazz is all about the soul, maaan misses the point. maybe for some people it's about that, but for the people in this movie it isn't. whether simmons' character misunderstands jazz or understands it in the same way as the guy from oneida doesn't matter, the movie just depends on the fact that he believes in his own understanding of it

Buddy Rich is also good on whatever Norman Granz jam sessions he's on.

This movie would make me wanna throw cymbals at the screen. I read a synopsis that suggests that the narrative validates the abuse of the teacher, and I read a review that says as much, too. And Buddy Rich is a baffling choice for jazz drum hero in 2014. What kind of Yngwie Malmsteen asshole would choose Buddy Rich among all the jazz drummers he'd surely hear first?

Clam.

I think this movie really doesn't care about music (or liking music or liking making music) which is weird for a movie where playing music plays such a big part, but at that same time I think as a movie about obsession/sadomasochism it's works pretty well and is nicely acted/plotted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47yxLg2RyXM

I think most jazz d-bags think jazz is about technique and creativity, not "soul." Student and teacher jamming out together as equals at the end suggests that the writer thinks the teacher's "tough love" is good pedagogy, and it's not.

i'm most interested in kid millions' point about the cognitive dissonance between the plot and the playing. are we supposed to interpret the kid's playing as being as entry-level as it actually is, or suspend our disbelief?

i should really stop talking about this since i haven't seen it though, sorry.

xp

i'm actually in favor of 'tough love' pedagogy (or at least it worked for me and i respond well to it, i know others don't), but it has to be aiming towards a noble goal. like, my own college jazz education was this way, at one point half the class/band was kicked out for the rest of the semester (they still passed the class on the books, but that wasn't the point). others quit at different times. but it was all about taking it seriously, learning the history, listening & being musical, etc.

in terms of its lack of realism or how dissimilar it was to other people's jazz education, IMO it's totally plausible that there are people out there for whom playing big band jazz is about playing it super tight and fast and having sick chops. the insistence in that new yorker piece that jazz is all about the soul, maaan misses the point. maybe for some people it's about that, but for the people in this movie it isn't. whether simmons' character misunderstands jazz or understands it in the same way as the guy from oneida doesn't matter, the movie just depends on the fact that he believes in his own understanding of it

― flopson, Thursday, January 15, 2015 12:27 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's kind of hard to conceive of any even remotely high-level musical director in ANY style of music who thinks it's all just about chops and speed. Like I just can't imagine that person even getting hired in a good conservatory. That said, I'm prepared to suspend my disbelieve because I don't think jazz is what the movie is *really* about.

What kind of Yngwie Malmsteen asshole would choose Buddy Rich among all the jazz drummers he'd surely hear first?

ha this kind of makes sense to me, technical ability is a lot easier to appreciate & approximate than the more subtle (and important) aspects of music, right? and when you haven't been playing long you're a lot more concerned about it, or at least was. that's my excuse for listening to a lot of very silly prog, fusion, and metal (and Buddy Rich!) in high school.

I've never heard anyone ask "who was the fastest jazz drummer ever?" The fastest drummers are the guys who win those "fastest drummer" competitions, and no one ever hears of them.

i haven't seen this. i def knew really talented music students who were really chops-centered as a whole thing. couldn't even tell what it was about music they enjoyed, but i guess they did. they seemed to be hungering for a feeling of being impressed, if not moved in the way that i wanted from music. aside from contemporary jazz players who were technically really amazing, the dudes i'm thinking of were into dream theater and shit

Any type of music degree program that doesn't center itself on developing the technical ability of its students is doing those students a massively damaging, career-limiting disservice.

well yeah, but "developing the technical ability of its students" is a little more complicated than BPM

it's also a movie, and i believe we're led to assume that in the time jumps jk occasionally said something to them other than "not my tempo"

i respect if folks familiar with the drum world are distracted by implausibilities and technical errors, but imo the film wasn't trying to be a documentary about jazz drumming

Well yes, but saying "what type of high-level instructor focuses on chops" seems like a wholly absurd thing to say to me, given the exposure I've had by proxy to music performance programs and the people who have gone through them

I think goole's point was, what kind of high-level instructor focuses on chops to the exclusion of every other aspect of music instruction?

Isn't that kind of the point though? He's not really a very good "instructor".

exactly. he takes a crop of students already good enough to attend a conservatory, and puts them through a death march, believing this will give them the discipline to succeed (and it focuses on an easy-to-grasp aspect of their training, rather than giving a thorough portrait of life in a conservatory, as a thorough portrait of life in a conservatory isn't really the goal). if one's response to this is "woah, that's a horrible way to make great musicians" - congrats! people in the movie agree with you and he loses his job.

I am waiting for someone to make a moving like Whiplash about the Magic Band. That would probably be a great movie.

uh did you see Frank

you should, it's really good and you can completely disregard the fucking terrible article written about it and whiplash that got reposted here a while back

I did see Frank and I thought it was great.

I don't think that's a doc about Magic Band.

oh a doc, jeez, lol

hmmm Frank got pretty grouchy reviews from the crix i follow (as did Whiplash)

Really? I thought it was pretty well received.

I love Miles Teller but have been avoiding this movie bc everything I've seen/read indicates it's a work of pro-abuse meninist bullshit tell me I'm mistaken?

ur not gonna like it if that's your attitude

good to know thx

yeah i'd say it's definitely not an outright rebuke of pro-abuse meninist bullshit

and it's definitely about pro-abuse meninists

*watches "I Am Love" again*

saw the word 'meninist' somewhere else recently but this is the first ilx usage - did someone coin it recently?

srs answer to owen:

i think it's as 'complicated' as it needs to be about abuse without endorsing it. as alfred says its singlemindedness of purpose is a strength, it's really contained within their relationship and there's barely any outside perspective, aside from the dad, girlfriend, and a lawyer pushing neiman to sue, and from the perspective of the two main characters they're all seen as 'just not getting it.' the abuse-ey scenes are fucking harsh but you also get a feel for why people get sucked into that dynamic, the manipulation, the seductiveness. i guess the ending would seem to vindicate simmons' methods, but imo it was more about overcoming his fear of simmons. don't get where 'meninist' comes into it

I think there are a lot of ways to read the end. I don't think it's necessarily a vindication of Simmons' methods. It's definitely a "triumph" for Teller, but I don't necessarily it's one that makes you like or necessarily even respect him more for achieving.

For the record I liked Frank more than I liked Whiplash.

yeah i loved the ending for allowing that critical distance from his accomplishment without denying it from him to make some kind of point

i also love imagining the viral madness that would have followed that performance hitting the interne

t.

WHAT THIS DRUMMER KID DOES NEXT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND

the title tune is such a mediocre piece of music imo

title track = Metallica?

Don Ellis/Hank Levy

I assumed it was the "Star Wars" theme, with the lyrics, "Whiplaash...nothing but whiplaash...drummers get whiplaash...yeah..."

Reminds me of Lennon's response to "Hey Hey My My":

I hate it. Its better to fade away like an old soldier than to burn out. I don't appreciate worship of dead Sid Vicious or of dead James Dean or of dead John Wayne. It's the same thing. Making Sid Vicious a hero, Jim Morrison--its garbage to me. I worship the people who survive. Gloria Swanson, Greta Garbo. They're saying John Wayne conquered cancer--he whipped it like a man. You know, I'm sorry that he died and all that--I'm sorry for his family--but he didn't whip cancer. It whipped him. I don't want Sean worshipping John Wayne or Sid Vicious. What do they teach you? Nothing. Death.

Sid Vicious died for what? So that we might rock? I mean its garbage, you know. If Neil Young admires that sentiment so much, why doesn't he do it? Because he sure as hell faded away and came back many times, like all of us. No thank you. I'll take the living and the healthy.

curious to see what Madonna considers "nothing". iirc raising a family and living to see your grandkids and great-grandkids isn't "nothing".

had my right hand inspected by a jazz drummer at a free workshop last night
other guy involved in the convo (bass player) asked if he was inspecting for callouses

um, what was he inspecting for?

honestly idk -- i know that my hands are strong (bony, but strong!) and also it was weird that he grabbed my hand and began to inspect it but i got a distinctly whiplashy feel to the interaction so i wanted to put it here. i still haven't seen the movie btw. i asked half-jokingly if he'd like to inspect my arm but he declined.

i went up to him after his set to say that i enjoyed it, told him i am also drummer (and how long i have been playing) and the inspection followed after a line of questioning intended to determine whether or not i was ready to participate in the workshop (it is an open jam workshop type thing).

sounds kinda icky

it def has never happened before
i didn't feel like gross or anything it just seemed like an excessive measure of my dedication to grab my hand and inspect it. welcome to my world!

I asked my bridge teacher if she'd seen Whiplash after ridiculing me for leading away from an ace. She laughed

I have to admit this one sort of lost me when Teller and Reiser continued talking after Rififi started. After that I was all "Simmons slapped you...fuck you, you talked during a movie...You're bleeding?...Hit by a truck?...Fuck you, you talked during a movie."

Need to work on that. Simmons was a very convincing piece of human garbage tho, and I'm very excited for the good movies Teller will do in the future between all the paycheck stuff he'll most certainly take on.

i watched "keep on, keeping on" last night and it was everything this movie wasn't and is highly recommended.
clark terry was a helluva guy

This is a pretty cool interpretation of Whiplash

definitely interesting to think of the film as a manifestation of an aspiring musician's anxieties

this is a thoroughly silly movie. lots of unintentional hilarity.

but then, i also woke up in the middle of the night after an incredibly vivid anxiety dream/nightmare about missing a gig with my band.

Basically the Karate Kid on drums.

it's so dumb how when doing press for this movie, they were all semantically evasive about saying 'almost all the drumming you see in the movie is him'. of course, people are going to take that to mean that you're also hearing him play, but that's not true 98% of the time. he just did a half-decent job at miming (although watching his stiff-armed, palm-down, pinkie-out ride cymbal technique is painful...but maybe that's in-character for a college freshman drummer? except when they switch to overhead shots all of a sudden it's someone with nice grip).

Neil Peart on Whiplash:

"There is no blood in jazz drumming, and there are no bullies in jazz drumming. My teacher Peter Erskine was saying he feels ungrateful because it's great there's a movie about drummers, but why is it so flawed humanistically and in small technical ways that didn't cost anything? It wouldn't cost anything to have a proper jazz drum set and to show the guy how to use his wrists. And the bloody ice cube jug or whatever? Absurd! There's a Band-Aid on my finger right now – yeah, I bleed. But jazz drumming, no, there is no bleeding."

flappy bird said this on the la la land thread

the depiction of a music teacher as a sadistic drill master

there are no bullies in jazz? there are no sadistic drill sergeant wannabes in music education? what fucking planet are you and Neil Peart from?

i've heard that Buddy Rich tape! bullying in the name of such boring music is unfortunate though.

The hand inspection! So much has happened since then.

One of my students asked me if I had seen this movie a couple days ago. I said yes and he asked what I thought. I replied by asking what he thought about the teacher (since I am his teacher) and I don't exactly remember what he said but we agreed that the teacher was abusive. IIRC he also said that some people with talent "need" that sort of treatment to reach their full potential. I thought about what a pervasive idea this is, that talented people should/might need to be bullied into excellence. I don't agree but is this common wisdom?

Talented people can be lazy as hell

Who's an example of an IRL talented person who required other people to bully them to accomplish anything?

If they are lazy, they need to develop willpower, which bullying isn't great at imo

I can't think of an example because it seems like "wisdom" that comes from excuse-making after someone is bullied rather than a legitimate strategy for achieving excellence. "He needed it to achieve his potential" -- that's essentially what my student said and I found it kind of surprising.

xp to NA - That's kind of a "prove a negative" problem in certain professions I can think of, music education certainly being one.

I think a lot of music educators - not one-on-one instructors much, but definitely bandleaders, conductors etc. use bullying and similar drill instructor techniques as a shortcut to get obedience out of small crowds of geniuses.

I should differentiate between the truly pathological, manipulative shit that JK Simmons does in this movie, and the shouting and belittling that are par for the course in marching bands and military training everywhere

Art Taylor published a book of interviews he conducted with (famous) jazz musicians, and none of the drummers in the book cite "tough love" as a motivator for being creative or improving their craft. The closest they come is one drummer describing how hard he studied and practiced, telling a story about being really competitive about who gets to the equipment for practice in the morning when he lived with another musician. Meanwhile, another drummer in another interview basically says jazz is about feeling and not technique, and a lot of the musicians from the period Art Taylor focuses on describe their experiences of learning to play by listening to and playing with musicians they like.

When I was reading the motivation literature as a prelude to entering a teaching credential program a few years ago, I learned that a lot of the motivation folk wisdom about, e.g., rewards and punishment is wrong, and those things are not particularly motivating and can in fact be demotivating. Even the "conservative" hardliners and dissenters in motivation literature like applied behavior analysis researchers and practitioners or Pritchard, Campbell & Campbell believe punishment is demotivating.

I think people espouse the virtues of tough love because it's easy. If someone isn't doing as well as you'd hope, or if someone seems disinterested, you can yell at them or force them to do something. It's easy to find anecdotal evidence of this having some effect on young people. You hold their feet over the coals and then they do the thing you asked, therefore your tough love made them into the intelligent and responsible adults they become, no credit due to having literature in the home, or to eating with them, or to giving access to the tools they need to think and be creative, or to the daily demonstrations we give of how to live in the world and get along with others.

Yeah, not disputing any of that. Interestingly I've come to realize the structured "tough love" I got in the service did more to bring out my work ethic and confidence than the previous nearly two decades of whatever my parents and teachers had been doing.

I am certain that almost no famous creative person would ever point to a disciplinarian as a prime motivator, though.