TRUE or FALSE: Lars Ulrich of Metallica is a terrible drummer

but yeah dude is sloppy but whatever dude played on battery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_qLd2uj21w

also in live performances he's just working his ass off which is pretty impressive on its own

this is a fave fantasy football moment though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QLZSDTOtyc

could watch this all night long:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ivOfkqFmxg

TRUE or FALSE: Dave Lombardo was a sexy drummer

he's MY sex god.

things got really real in metal land with the dawn of death and xtreme drumming. not every 80's warrior could hang with that crowd, but they could get by on legend and hard rock chops. kills me how someone like gene hoglan can still be an insane death robot all these years later, but then so was buddy rich when he was ancient. roy haynes is 400 years old and he can still kick your ass.

HSB-- I only have 'an axe to grind' if you believe that actively challenging some endlessly repeatedly opinion that rarely if ever appears with any supporting evidence is unreasonable. Yes, I have an opinion and I'm willing to state it outright, but i asked in my first message for anyone to offer up any specific evidence showing how he is terrible-- and no i don't think that's a strawman at all. People often call him terrible and one of the worst drummers ever. Your statement about bootlegs is the first time I have ever heard anyone intimate anything approximating supporting evidence; my genuine impression thus far has been that most people with this view have not independently noticed his poor drumming, especially given that few have probably even heard Metallica bootlegs. You are free to disagree with my assessment, though I still would like to her some specific reference material if you can cite some recordings. I would be particularly interested in hearing bad drumming on any of their proper albums.

Well not everyone listens to bootlegs but hundreds of thousands of people have seen them live over the years, it's not as if he only played sloppily in his own basement or at this one show. I can fully understand that many a metalhead who also saw a Maiden or Slayer gig would find Metallica surprisingly messy - I did too. My tolerance for shoddy musicianship is legendary tho.

For the last ten to fifteen years he's been playing at the limit of his capabilities especially where consistency and speed are concerned, and when you do that your bad days are much more noticeable.

Watching footage I often wonder if he has a bad back because he always stands up from his stool, even during breaks in songs, I know it's partly a 'HEY CLEVELAND, HOW YA DOING?' move but idk.

His posture is pretty bad, so yeah, he probably has back problems. I'd be shocked if he didn't. It's not uncommon among drummers: Phil Collins' back got so bad in recent years that he couldn't even hold a drumstick (though he's supposedly recovered/recovering), and Larry Mullen has had at least one back surgery.

I think Lars gets a bad reputation in part because so many metal drummer peers are so much better. Back then, Lombardo, Benante, et al., not to mention the crazy tech prodigies that followed in his (and everyone's) wake. Lars is great on record, creative, interesting, etc., without being a machine. He's also been very open about feeling not up to the task, taking lessons, doing 1000 takes to try to get something above his abilities down. He's more or less admitted that one thing that prompted the black album slowdown was all the competition in the other direction: he couldn't keep up. Hence the advent of triggers: shit has gotten so fast even ace drummers can't keep it up, either.

Not to "appeal to authority" or whatever, but I interviewed Lamb of God's Chris Adler for WonderingSound a few years ago, and here's what he had to say about Lars:

"You know what? Everywhere I went [when we toured with Metallica], people would come up to me and say 'Did you hear Lars messed that up?' or 'What do you think of Lars?' and all this stuff. I think it’s real easy to pick on the king, and for me there was a particular sound that happened on the ...And Justice For All record that made me want to tune my drums that way. And that almost defined what metal drums are supposed to sound like, at least as I was coming up. And then seeing him live, he made fewer mistakes than I did. There’s never a perfect night, but I think people give him much too hard a time. I think he’s a great drummer. In talking to him and getting to know him a little bit, I think there’s a point – and I’ve recently reached it in my playing as well – where if you are constantly absorbed with performance and making sure every night is perfect and every song is played perfectly, if and when mistakes come about, they generally turn into much larger issues because of the focus that you give them. As opposed to it being, 'Ah, it was an off night.' And Lars, in my opinion after talking to him, he’s gotten to the point where he’s not overanalyzing himself, he’s not critiquing every night’s performance, he’s not going to bed wishing he had hit one of the double bass runs harder or more specifically than he did. Every night’s a new chance to do it right, and that’s how he approaches it. And seeing that and getting that through my own head, I’ve definitely had much better performances since then."

Personally, I like Ulrich's drumming, particularly live. I saw them twice in 2008-9, and he was my favorite thing about the show. He gives their music a loose, rock 'n' roll feel that's a lot of fun—Metallica's first four studio albums are models of precision and compositional craft, but when you hear those songs in an arena, bashed out by four dudes in their 50s, they come alive in an entirely transformative way.

Hence the advent of triggers: shit has gotten so fast even ace drummers can't keep it up, either.

I wouldn't know how to search for it, but I seem to remember a recent article about how the technical-facility arms race in metal drumming has led to some drummers using drum machines on stage, but trying to hide it, and the controversy/backlash being analogous to doping/PEDs in sports.

I cannot begin to answer this question objectively, Metallica were the band that got me into metal (indeed you could argue got me into music in a serious way) when I was 13. So for me the drumming on the first five albums are the platonic ideal of metal drumming, and kind of showed me how percussion works and what it can add to a band of any genre.

Agreed he is extremely sloppy live (judged from clips rather than ever actually having been to a concert), but these days Metallica gigs seem to be fun singalong parties rather than serious musical events, and there's nothing wrong with that really.

It's all relative which is Lars' biggest problem: He's probably the least talented player in his own band and when he came up he was surrounded by drummers, many of whom were mentioned above, who were also better than he was. He's okay, but surrounded by people who are much better.

His personality also makes him a magnet for criticism. The way he eats crackers like he owns the place, that sort of thing.

man oh man listening to starless and bible black right now and that album will remind you what a drummer sounds like in a hurry!

Well, yeah. Not a fair comparison, though.

surrounded by people who are much better.

Keep in mind, the doc even shows Kirk struggling. If anything, Trujillo is the most talented dude in the band. He sort of fills the Darryl Jones dumbin' down for the Stones role.

who except for jazz bores really pay attention to drummers

Christ almighty can we collectively outgrow this infantile know-nothingism about musicianship, please

lol

DNFTT

i mean the dude played on lulu, he's a great drummer in my book

― tylerw, Wednesday, 25 March 2015 22:30 (Yesterday) Permalink

Also, as a friend of mine once said, "Lars is a terrible drummer, but he's the best possible drummer for Metallica"

chap otm. I also learned to play drums (and more importantly memorize arrangements and think about how everything interlocked) from Lars.

It's funny that this thread popped up, I've been listening to AJFA all week (as I do at least once or twice a year) and I still love it as much as ever. I wouldn't want it to sound any different either, the tight & mechanized drum sound is perfect for his approach on that record.

For me his true talent lies in his phrasing and the parts he makes up. They're so crucial to the song...there are lots of parts on AJFA where the same riff acts as interlude, verse, and sometimes even chors, and the only differentiator (besides the vocal) is the drum part. His parts are so hooky, and there are so many weird little fills and variations in the middle of the phrases that I don't hear other metal drummers do.

I don't really give a fuck if he can play it live or not (and he does rush hilariously live, but whatever). He came up with genius parts and recorded them perfectly...even if the sections were cut together with a million tape splices, he still played each part as he wanted it to be played (no Pro Tools magic).

I also think I relate to him (then & now) as a drummer whose head is better than his hands. He'd probably be a great electronic musician or beatmaker if he was born thirty years later.

So sounds like most of us are more or less saying the same thing: he's not a great technical drummer but suits the music.

Anyway, for those who'd like the idea of a Metallica with a better drummer (and guitar players), you have Megadeth "Rust In Peace" etc.

I used to have lengthy debates with this pretentious Megadeth fan in the 90s who seemed to treat music as a competition who constantly referred to the band's musicianship as proof of their superiority. which was kind of missing the point (not just of Metallica, but the reason that Megadeth was good).

I mean I like the little sloppy things Metallica does live like intentionally rushing the beats between chord changes in the chorus of Creeping Death. the only thing I dislike about Metallica live is how over the years they've gotten bored and messed with arrangements in ways that don't help. not at all against adding flourishes, but there's one lead riff Kirk added over the riff prior to the drum breakdown in "One" in the mid-90s that hurts more than it helps and I wish he would retire it...takes me out of the moment.

thankfully James quit doing the "I'm bored so I'm going to fuck around" mentality vocally speaking. Cunning STunts DVD is unwatchable to me because he occasionally adds goofy cartoonish voices (Sad But True), ridiculous exaggerated enunciation (even for him) on "Nothing Else Matters", etc. that one Mexico DVD from 2009, there are moments he yells where he almost sounds like the pre-yodel James.

Remember when Megadeth used to refer to themselves as a "State of the Art Speed Metal Band"?

Anyway, for those who'd like the idea of a Metallica with a better drummer (and guitar players), you have Megadeth "Rust In Peace" etc.

― Siegbran

But with worse songwriting, sadly...

Never spent much time on Metallica, but greatly enjoying this thread for its nuanced Drummer As Important Member Of Rock Band vs. Drummer As Chops Monster discussion.

This got me thinking, it would be fucking awesome to see another Big 4 tour where they each do a full set of each others songs. Megadeth doing Bring The Noise? Metallica doing Raining Blood? Slayer doing Master Of Puppets? Anthrax doing Symphony Of Destruction? Please take my money!

you can always listen to stone among many other cool bands inspired by metallica. their drummer was cool. metallica famously supposedly stole their cool riff. and then the drummer ended up in amorphis? i think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaw90R2gHoc

siegbran, don't give them any ideas! i'd settle for some cool new music that i would actually want to listen to.

i feel like i can listen to death people for decades, but thrashers not so much. i'm always happy to hear a new immolation record.

Immolation are fucking godhead

Metallica w Dave Lombardo would be so gross

"I seem to remember a recent article about how the technical-facility arms race in metal drumming has led to some drummers using drum machines on stage, but trying to hide it, and the controversy/backlash being analogous to doping/PEDs in sports."

This happens a ton in the studio now with metal production where you get producers doing microscopic edits all over metal drumming by shifting hits around next to a metronome grid. People spend hours upon hours editing that stuff.

So I guess Ministry's "Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste" was indeed truly ahead of its time. Because the crazy drum programming on that thing was pretty much unreplicable, even with two drummers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLCZhQX_Fm0

We've come full circle back to industrial.

i heard that Flo Mounier just records himself hitting each piece of his kit once and the producer uses one of those radio shack sampling keyboards to fill in the rest

Isn't that what they did with Tomas Haake from Meshuggah? The Drumkit From Hell software program was all built out of individual Haake hits.

there's one lead riff Kirk added in the mid-90s that hurts more than it helps and I wish he would retire it...takes me out of the moment.

This happens a ton in the studio now with metal production where you get producers doing microscopic edits all over metal drumming by shifting hits around next to a metronome grid. People spend hours upon hours editing that stuff.

― earlnash, Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:04 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

don't think there's any genre where moving all beats over to snap to grid isn't now the norm

having a nightmare now of going to see some tech metal band and having the drummer only be able to do kick+snare, kick+snare and audience starts booing

This happens a ton in the studio now with metal production where you get producers doing microscopic edits all over metal drumming by shifting hits around next to a metronome grid. People spend hours upon hours editing that stuff.

― earlnash, Sunday, 29 March 2015 23:04 (Yesterday) Permalink

A relative of mine was in a pro-style metal band, who worked with a "name" producer (I feel like he had done stuff with Korn or someone), they spent three weeks and untold amounts of money working on their album. The entire first week was getting drum sounds and recording each individual drum, uploading it into a computer and assembling the drum beats that way.

The drummer who played on the record was a fill-in guy. After the band got home and started looking for a new drummer they were dismayed to find out that no one could play any of the songs as they had been created in the computer. They spent a few frustrating months of not being able to get a replacement they eventually broke up and I don't think the album ever actually came out.

LOL this thread is a great window into the insanity of modern metal.

thankfully James quit doing the "I'm bored so I'm going to fuck around" mentality vocally speaking

you will die

OHHHHHH

when i sayyy

WATCH ME NOW

love dizazter. this is from this year. impiety are from singapore but dizazter is from australia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-X2kNoPFSc

Is the "No samples, no triggers" Bandcamp disclaimer 2015's answer to the "NO SYNTHS" LP shrink wrap sticker, or what?

Once you start down the adjusting-drum-hits-individually, forever will it dominate your destiny.

re: this, I don't think Kirk gets enough flack for how badly he occasionally blows this live. like, there's mistakes, and there's him occasionally falling two entire measures behind (as I pointed out upthread), hitting the wrong frets, bending out of tune, or on one 1986 bootleg, actually fucking up the harmonized interlude to Master of Puppets because he started on the wrong fret and couldn't fix it, so he was playing dissonant garbage while James played it correctly.

and then there are the shows where he IS a machine and nails everything. but he's so casual live to the point where he sometimes comes across as not gaf, and yet the knock on Kirk = "he's a lame guitarist in that his lead compositions suck, but he can play technically like a mo'fo!".

anywho, I stand by what I said upthread about Lars, but lord, Kirk has degraded over the years and hides a lot of his mistakes in wah (which he's done for years), but I'm fairly sure they had to fix a lot via overdubs on live recordings for him.

James does seem to have been the glue that held the rickety thing together, but I also think there has to be a reason two of his bandmates remained constant throughout the band's career, the same band that is way more successful and popular than p much all of the bands with "better" drummers/guitarists.

It's amazing how many huge bands have at least one member that really can't play - Kiss, U2, the Stones (Charlie, sue me), I'm sure there's more. I suppose that crap musicians learn to come up with interesting workarounds occasionally, although most people in loser bands are just crap at even that.

I don't even really think Lars is "crap." The technical standards in metal are pretty high and he may not meet them, but I enjoy his feel, sound, fills etc.

i think i'd be even nicer about lars' drumming now than i was upthread but i have a lot more appreciation for individual feel these days even if that feel can be described as stiff. on justice he is just this thrumming industrial machine, and he has a real understanding of drum fills as hooks

kirk is really the sloppiest of any of them live but i find it impossible to criticize him because he is like a baby kitten whose feelings i care about

he was playing dissonant garbage

Didn't know they'd pioneered this too.

Yeah totally, re fills as hooks. I think one of the flaws of a lot of drummers with greater technical prowess is that they fail to understand that the kind of hyper-advanced shit they are doing gives people too much sonic information to process, esp if they're not watching your youtube video while listening.

Re: Lars, I watched some of those Hardwired making-of videos recently, and while it's no Some Kind of Monster, it's the closest window to seeing their Justice-style writing process. It's pretty clear that even though James writes the actual riffs & melodies, the songs wouldn't really exist without Lars. He's the arranger, he's the one making confident decisions about which riffs go together and become songs, where to repeat little cells and insert extra bars, which takes are keepers, etc.

Also every now and then he'll play a little fill and it just sounds iconically Lars, I don't have a bad word to say about him (even if he has atrocious time live, but he can turn it on in the studio, so who cares).

most modern metal albums sound quantized to fuck so it's kind of hard to say who's got it and who doesn't

Lars always seems like he's playing someone else's kit. Like, the parts are all fine and good or great, but then you see him, and he always seems to be struggling to reach the right cymbals or hit the right tom.

Maybe he needs a more ergonomic drum set

He should never have stopped using that white Tama kit he had back in the day

Lars doesn't drum, he sits there while 4 burly me move his body up and down

so I'm watching one of the vids that came with the AJFA boxed set, and Lars is a split second off beat consistently during the "dun nuh nuh, duh nuh nuh" Part during "...And Justice for All", so it sounds like the aural equivalent of someone's boots getting stuck in the mud every few seconds.

the band is having to adjust to it and it is distracting af.

I’m inspired by your posts to revisit the remasters - working my way through the earlier stuff, the single RTL DVD and the two MOP DVDs, and Cliff Em All. The four (4!) Justice DVDs look a bit intimidating I have to say.

As a Johnny-come-lately to the metal scene, I even struggle with Metallica's classic studio recordings, let alone their live releases. Ride the Lightning comes closest to fully swaying me.

xpost it's really more like two actual shows, one video of handheld camcorder clips of parts of songs, and......i don't think i've seen the 4th one yet, i think it's interviews

the dvd from the Stone Balloon is great, cuz it's Metallica performing in a teeny club just so they could say htey play Delaware

I have a story about that Delaware show... I posted this on my Facebook some time ago but some here might enjoy it...

Metallica decided that they wanted to play all 50 states on the Damaged Justice Tour so they did a surprise show at the Stone Balloon, a beloved college-town club in Wilmington, Delaware. Seeing Metallica in a small club would have been amazing!

I have no idea how I figured it out in the pre-internet days but I found out about the show in advance and called the local promoters Cellar Door a few weeks in advance of the show. The guy on the phone was stunned that I heard about it and said he would reserve me tickets for the show!

Friend and sometime photographer David Rogers and Jeff Vander Clute of Metal Meltdown fanzine fame took the trip with me. We made a weekend of it - the day before I went to L'AMOUR in Brooklyn for the first time ever and caught DBC (Dead Brain Cells).

We crashed with my grandmother who lived in Jamaica. The next day we went into the city and visited some record labels (my fanzine Curious Goods was a reality at this point and Metal Meltdown was legendary in the underground so i was able to glom off of Jeff's established cred).

I remember meeting Larry Getlen, then a publicist for Roadracer (not Roadrunner yet) who gave me tons of stuff including Obituary's "Slowly We Rot" on vinyl and the first Last Crack cassette (he said of the latter project "that's really weird.")

We also visited Noise Records' NYC office and Sal Treppiedi hooked me up with a Kreator Extreme Aggression tee-shirt (when I wore it to a DC show people were in awe how I got it) as well as a shit ton of music.

Then we drove down to Delaware where a huge throng was there. My name was on the list but not to get in for free, just to get into the sold out show... And I was broke! But the guy from Cellar Door said he would trust me to mail him a check... Yay! We were going on!

But then they checked my ID. I was not 21. Entrance denied. Horrible!

In the forthcoming months I would get letters from other fanzine guys saying to me "Did you see me onstage singing 'Seek & Destroy'" and a little part of me died.

The show was bootlegged and released on vinyl (the cover of which is pictured here).

http://img.discogs.com/pLSy2faHu8-LRw6BYPTrudNkaZ8=/fit-in/600x605/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-626440-1140233939.jpeg.jpg

I never got it. The show is on YouTube if anyone wants to check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WkLm6yLO_Q

Jeff is not on Facebook but I did exchange emails with him a couple years ago when I picked up the entire series of Metal Meltdown on eBay.

Oh man. Oh man oh man. I died with you during that story.

yeah that would have gutted me.

course I was 9 at the time so