Going To Law School

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i'm sure many firms will still do OCI to nab some summer associates probably

cutty, Saturday, 28 March 2009 14:59 (fifteen years ago) link

it's hard to predict as it hinges on the economy and God knows where that will be come September, but my guess is that BigLaw will still show up although they won't nab as many potential summer associates as in the recent past and will be even more snooty selective than they normally are.

if you have any pre-law school experience with bankruptcy you may have a chance.

LOLBJ (Eisbaer), Saturday, 28 March 2009 16:05 (fifteen years ago) link

Sadly no. I have the grades for OCI easily, but some are speculating that certain firms may skip schools like mine this year and focus on top schools. That's just rumor, of course.

Comprehensive Nuclear Suggest-Ban Treaty (Hurting 2), Saturday, 28 March 2009 16:34 (fifteen years ago) link

four weeks pass...

Man, I'm sitting around waiting to find out if I made the final cut for Moot Court. Some people have already heard. Even the possibility of not making it is making me realize that most of the "happiness" in law school comes from winning stuff, and that's a pretty empty kind of happiness.

btw, what ever happened to Burt Stanton?

eggy mule (Hurting 2), Monday, 27 April 2009 02:51 (fifteen years ago) link

he was suggest banned without notice or a hearing

barfy (harbl), Monday, 27 April 2009 03:03 (fifteen years ago) link

tbh if you don't make it you can just feel relieved that's like hundreds less hours you can spend doing school stuff for the next two years

barfy (harbl), Monday, 27 April 2009 03:05 (fifteen years ago) link

barfy harbl

i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Monday, 27 April 2009 03:07 (fifteen years ago) link

i like to barf and i am crazy

barfy (harbl), Monday, 27 April 2009 03:07 (fifteen years ago) link

i like to harbl and i am barfy

i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Monday, 27 April 2009 03:10 (fifteen years ago) link

i didn't do moot court. we had to do a competition second semester of 2L to get on a team and i didn't feel like it. i do not regret it.

barfy (harbl), Monday, 27 April 2009 03:17 (fifteen years ago) link

I kind of want to do it -- I enjoy appellate argument more than most things in law school. Mostly I just want the right stuff on my resume so I can do...???

eggy mule (Hurting 2), Monday, 27 April 2009 03:32 (fifteen years ago) link

Moot court and journal work help, but GPA is the most important thing. You're doing well in that regard, right?

I've not seen burt around at all lately.

Two Will Get You Three (B.L.A.M.), Wednesday, 29 April 2009 23:43 (fifteen years ago) link

So in the case of another round of good grades, transfer or stay on the full-ride? I'm a bit debt-phobic and I REALLY don't want to move again (I live in student housing), not to mention have to start gathering materials and recs during finals. I also fear change. But some think the opportuinites are better for the average NYU student than they are for the top at my school. No idea whether this economy makes that more or less true (or neither?).

eggy mule (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 5 May 2009 16:01 (fifteen years ago) link

i don't know if my opinion is less useful or something because i'm pretty anti-fancy schools but i would stay. the benefits seem pretty marginal. if you're at the top of your class at bls the same jobs are open to you, and not having any debt is a huge huge thing.

not to mention you could also lose stuff you've built up like if they also choose moot court in the first year you'd have to re-apply and might not get on, and law review too, and you'd have no reputation with your new professors you'll want recommendations from for 2L summer jobs.

erudite e-scholar (harbl), Tuesday, 5 May 2009 16:10 (fifteen years ago) link

it really frustrates me that they've convinced people that the advantage you get from going to a place like nyu is worth the extra tens of thousands of dollars. i know a bunch of people from my midwest state school going to big fancy firms in nyc (though their start dates are all deferred now) and they've saved themselves a boatload of money by not going to a "real law school" as burt_stanton liked to say. anyway my impression is if your record is good you really don't lose anything worth that much money by being at a lower ranked school as long as it's somewhere in the top 50.

erudite e-scholar (harbl), Tuesday, 5 May 2009 16:15 (fifteen years ago) link

Yeah, actually risk of deferral or no offer makes lack-of-debt seem all the more enticing, and it's not like I'm trying to become a federal circuit court justice or leading legal scholar.

eggy mule (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 5 May 2009 22:09 (fifteen years ago) link

No, you're perfectly set-up to become a completely neurotic BIGFIRM burnout case by the time you're 34.

Three Word Username, Wednesday, 6 May 2009 05:28 (fourteen years ago) link

SWEET

eggy mule (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 6 May 2009 05:33 (fourteen years ago) link

submitted writing competition. Done with 1L. WOOT!

Garri$on Kilo (Hurting 2), Monday, 18 May 2009 14:53 (fourteen years ago) link

Congrats, dude. The work may get more intense in the second year, but you're over the worst hump in the game.

Damn, I HATED first year.

Two Will Get You Three (B.L.A.M.), Monday, 18 May 2009 19:16 (fourteen years ago) link

one month passes...

If I revive this thread will the law dudes come out of the woodwork again?

I'm in the middle of transfer apps. No idea whether I'll really be better off, especially *in this economy*, but it can't hurt.

Garri$on Kilo (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 21:17 (fourteen years ago) link

Where are you applying to transfer to? I take it your second semester went well as well.

Two Will Get You Three (B.L.A.M.), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 21:19 (fourteen years ago) link

Columbia, NYU, Penn. I had one weird low grade that I can't explain but still finished in the top 6%.

Garri$on Kilo (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 21:22 (fourteen years ago) link

Well done, sir. Congratulations. I think you will find that transferring will be a detaching experience, but if you should manage to get into any one of those three, your job prospects will be better. They each have national name recognition, for sure.

Two Will Get You Three (B.L.A.M.), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 21:29 (fourteen years ago) link

And I mean that congratulations sincerely. I know a lot of folks who offer congrats on such things don't, but I do.

Two Will Get You Three (B.L.A.M.), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 21:29 (fourteen years ago) link

Thanks. I also don't begrudge anyone their insincerity in such things. It's a shitty system that arbitrarily spits out a lot of people.

Garri$on Kilo (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 23 June 2009 21:44 (fourteen years ago) link

nice work, man

cutty, Tuesday, 23 June 2009 22:59 (fourteen years ago) link

Thanks. I'm freaking the fuck out about transferring tbh. My recommendation situation is a mess, and even if I get in I hate having to give up the comfy situation I have. I know I should, but not keen on it.

Garri$on Kilo (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 24 June 2009 02:55 (fourteen years ago) link

you won't know anyone. you will have no bonds with the former 1Ls. they will all shun you, transfer guy.

cutty, Wednesday, 24 June 2009 12:54 (fourteen years ago) link

;)

cutty, Wednesday, 24 June 2009 12:54 (fourteen years ago) link

Good work, H2. You'll be fine at the new law school, after a semester of violent hazing.

Daniel, Esq., Wednesday, 24 June 2009 14:09 (fourteen years ago) link

;)

Daniel, Esq., Wednesday, 24 June 2009 14:09 (fourteen years ago) link

Way to go, H2 -- you won't be accepted, and will finish at the top of your class feeling like an inadequate failure, and will spend your law firm career feeling exactly the same way.

Three Word Username, Wednesday, 24 June 2009 15:22 (fourteen years ago) link

;)

Three Word Username, Wednesday, 24 June 2009 15:22 (fourteen years ago) link

kudos, H2. 10, 20, 30, 40+ years down the line, when someone asks you what law school you went to, you still will have a hard time answering the question.

cutty, Wednesday, 24 June 2009 15:25 (fourteen years ago) link

;)

cutty, Wednesday, 24 June 2009 15:25 (fourteen years ago) link

also you will still be paying for it LOL

harbl, Wednesday, 24 June 2009 15:31 (fourteen years ago) link

LAWYER JOEKS

cutty, Wednesday, 24 June 2009 15:39 (fourteen years ago) link

You'll get over the pain of the transfer quickly. I guarantee it.

Two Will Get You Three (B.L.A.M.), Wednesday, 24 June 2009 18:03 (fourteen years ago) link

Aw, thanks guys.

Garri$on Kilo (Hurting 2), Thursday, 25 June 2009 00:44 (fourteen years ago) link

We should have law beers one day.

Garri$on Kilo (Hurting 2), Thursday, 25 June 2009 01:28 (fourteen years ago) link

you're not a lawyer yet, buddy

cutty, Thursday, 25 June 2009 01:34 (fourteen years ago) link

congrats on doing so well, hurting!

some sick fuck with a bow and arrow killing roos and koalas (Eisbaer), Thursday, 25 June 2009 03:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Wow, it's painful to go through this thread and read my old posts. I first started talking about applying in September 2005!

Garri$on Kilo (Hurting 2), Thursday, 25 June 2009 03:44 (fourteen years ago) link

you're not a lawyer yet, buddy

Pay no attention to this person. He's still trying to get over the hazing.

We should totes have law beers some day.

Two Will Get You Three (B.L.A.M.), Thursday, 2 July 2009 23:47 (fourteen years ago) link

bullshit

cutty, Sunday, 5 July 2009 20:05 (fourteen years ago) link

So I have no idea what the fuck to do in terms of OCI/bidding -- anyone have any tips?

the kid is crying because did sharks died? (Hurting 2), Thursday, 16 July 2009 03:59 (fourteen years ago) link

one month passes...

Perhaps this also belongs in the quidities and agonies of the ruling class thread?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/business/26lawyers.html?ref=business

the kid is crying because did sharks died? (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 26 August 2009 03:04 (fourteen years ago) link

Downturn Dims Prospects Even at Top Law Schools
By GERRY SHIH
This fall, law students are competing for half as many openings at big firms as they were last year in what is shaping up to be the most wrenching job search season in over 50 years.

For students now, the promise of the big law firm career — and its paychecks — is slipping through their fingers, forcing them to look at lesser firms in smaller markets as well as opportunities in government or with public interest groups, law school faculty and students say.

The frenzy has even pushed the nation’s top firms, a tradition-bound coterie, into discussing how to reform the recruitment process with an earnestness that would have been unthinkable just years ago.

Even if the economy is beginning to pick up, the legal profession has been pummeled over the last year, with some firms closing and survivors often asking associates to take leaves of absence.

How bad is it? Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, the juggernaut of New York, has slashed its hiring by more than half. For the first time in 136 years, Morgan, Lewis & Bockius, a respected Philadelphia firm, has canceled its recruiting entirely. Global firms like DLA Piper and Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe have postponed recruiting for several months to see if the market improves.

At Yale, students accustomed to being wooed by Big Law’s glittering names — like Baker & McKenzie; Milbank, Tweed, Hadley, & McCloy; and White & Case — were stunned when those firms canceled interviews in New Haven this month.

New York University, Georgetown, Northwestern and other top universities confirm that interviews are down by a third to a half compared with a year ago, while lower-ranked schools are suffering more. What is more, when interviews finish in a few weeks, even fewer offers will be extended, said Howard L. Ellin, the chairman of global hiring at Skadden, Arps, because many firms are interviewing students for slots they may not fill.

After he lost his job as a television reporter two years ago, Derek Fanciullo considered law school, thinking it was a historically sure bet. He took out “a ferocious amount of debt,” he said — $210,000, to be exact — and enrolled last September in the School of Law at New York University.

“It was thought to be this green pasture of stability, a more comfortable life,” said Mr. Fanciullo, who had heard that 90 percent of N.Y.U. law graduates land jobs at firms, and counted on that to repay his loans. “It was almost written in stone that you’ll end up in a law firm, almost like a birthright.”

With the cost of law school skyrocketing over the years, the implicit arrangement between students and the most expensive and prestigious schools has only strengthened: the student takes on hefty debt to pay tuition, and the school issues the golden ticket to a job at a high-paying firm — if that’s what the student wants.

“Students came in with a certain sense of what the compact was going to be,” said Irene Dorzback, the assistant dean for career services at the New York University School of Law. But with the system crumbling in recent months, Ms. Dorzback said, “people are now accepting this notion of a lost year.”

The timing is worst for the class of 2011, the second-years now looking to get into firms, because of a unique logjam created last year. After the September financial crisis, firms chose to defer their new hires at the price of steeply cutting recruiting this year.

But students who miss the brief window of opportunity to land an offer this fall may struggle to break into firms once next year’s class rises. When Julia Figurelli, a second-year student at the University of Pennsylvania, decided to enter law school a year ago, she expected to find a lucrative law firm job in three years — if not collecting the $160,000-a-year associate salaries at one of the uppermost partnerships. By the time she obtains her J.D., she says, she will have around $200,000 in debt.

“Had I seen where the market was going, I would’ve gone to a lower-ranked but less expensive public school,” she said. “I’m questioning whether law school was the right choice at all.”

Once aiming to work in Philadelphia, Ms. Figurelli is now hunting for jobs in lower-paying markets, like Pittsburgh and Fort Lauderdale, Fla. “I’m looking anywhere my competition isn’t looking,” she added.

School officials are pushing students to look beyond the white-shoe firms, to delve deep into alumni networks and to start mass letter-writing campaigns to potential employers. Like Ms. Figurelli, many students say that for the first time, they are considering and seeking work with government and public-interest groups.

The Social Security Administration, for example, said applications for lawyer positions and clerkships had more than doubled this year, to 2,000, from 800. The public-interest job fair at N.Y.U. this year was “packed to the gills,” Mr. Fanciullo recalled, but whereas in past years students had seven or eight interviews, some of his classmates this year had zero. “There’s a humongous trickle-down effect,” he said. “When the big firms don’t hire, everyone looks to government. And when those get filled up, then what happens?”

It has been a bizarre new reality, especially for elite schools. At Harvard, officials have had to hawk résumés or tell students, quite simply, to buck up. (“Now is not the time for avoidance, denial or panic,” Mark Weber, the assistant dean of career services, wrote in a March memo to Harvard Law’s graduating class.)

With the system’s frailties exposed by the recession, said Mr. Ellin from Skadden, Arps, the time could be ripe for “massive overhaul.”

Discussions at industry roundtables and casual talk among officials at leading schools and firms suggest a consensus that interview dates should be pushed back to the spring of the second year, if not the third year. The recent problems have arisen, reform-minded critics say, because the legal industry essentially hires two full years ahead of when employees begin to work. And because young lawyers have to be advanced by lockstep every year, it is difficult to make recruiting changes that are responsive to shocks in business.

“There’s a long list of issues that need re-examining,” said Ralph Baxter, the chairman of Orrick. “The current economic circumstances have helped people see the economic inefficiencies we’ve been living with.”

Even lockstep, as sacred a pillar of Big Law as the billable hour, has been undermined by the hiring headaches of the last year, some argue. Orrick and another major firm, Howrey, have introduced innovative programs for associates based on apprenticeships or tiered systems that depart from the traditional “up or out” partner-track models. Some industry observers say their moves represent first steps that may ultimately give firms greater flexibility in hiring.

“The situation is so dramatic it has freed them up to make changes that they wouldn’t otherwise,” said James G. Leipold, the executive director of the Association for Legal Career Professionals. “We’re going through a period of a surprising amount of experimentation.”

Not that any of those changes will come into effect soon enough to help the class of 2011.

On a recent Friday afternoon, Mr. Fanciullo sat at home waiting anxiously for his first callback after four days of interviews. Firms customarily called within 48 hours, he explained.

“You almost bank on the big firms hiring you because they’re really the only ones who can help you pay your debt,” he said, his mind already skipping forward to a situation he didn’t choose to articulate. “Quite frankly it would be an absolute disaster. I don’t know what I’d do."

the kid is crying because did sharks died? (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 26 August 2009 03:05 (fourteen years ago) link


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