HBO adaptation of Game of Thrones - will this be just for nerds? (NO SPOILERS PLEASE)

The complaint isn't just that it happened to another character. The complaint is that it happened to a character who's experience couldn't be shown. So the books didn't fail to show the victim's point of view, that was impossible. But the show changed the story, then failed anyways. At least that's how I understand the criticism re book-to-show.

I did shed a tear when they cut off Ned's boobs, it's true

feel like saying that the show is stupid and gratuitous is fine and prob so obvious as to no need mentioning, outlining what you feel is necessary to advance the plot is just like such bizarre behavior, as is qualifying ones own writing about the show as promotion

Before we dive into why we felt this was a choice which would cause us to stop promoting the show, allow us to say something very important: rape is not a necessary plot device. Really think about that before shouting “creative freedom” in our direction, please.

that piece literally is one of the strangest alt-universe approaches to art and what life is like its hard to wrap my mind around

i never made it this far in the books so i don't know if there are things about the alternative storyline that redeem it more in the eyes of critics of the show. it does seem to me that sansa's pov in the show has not been marginalized, and was not in that scene either. ymmv.

do people not remember that there is a much more visually disturbing depiction of sexual violence in the pilot of this show? Of a main character? And that character then falls in love with her rapist-husband? this is not remotely new territory for game of thrones is all.

the pilot also includes incest and attempted murder of a child so I guess it's forgiven if no one remembers one of a thousand revolting crimes that are the foundation of this show.

a lot of people are representing their feelings as "this is the last straw" -- some of those who have read the books (like presumably the Mary Sue writers), see this differently because it was something the writers made up with the idea that, "If you're going to make something up, this is what you come up with?"

is that like a fan fiction website or something?

that said, perhaps the most pressing real problem is the way the camera lingers on theon's face during it, and while i understand that as a way to not actually show us what's happening and kind of appreciate it for that reason, it is inevitably going to imply that the assault is notable in the story for how it makes theon/reek feel rather than uh the victim of sexual assault - whether that's what the benioff/weiss braintrust intended or not

― slothroprhymes, Wednesday, May 20, 2015 9:01 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my theory is this is all a set up for theon killing ramsey somehow during the battle w/ stannis. like the only way you can go back to liking theon in any way is for him to get rid of an even more worthless human being.

We don't really know what they came up with though. We've seen the event but not the aftermath. That's an important part of the context.

i don't know if there are things about the alternative storyline that redeem it more in the eyes of critics of the show

Hahahaha no.

I wonder what could have made the creators of the show think that throwing in some extra rape wouldn't be a big deal

things to think baout

it's not extra rape tho even - it's the same quantity of rape, just happening between different characters

feel like ive seen more "why is everyone up in arms about this rape!?" sentiment than actual "up in arms about this rape" sentiment

xxp truth bombs

do you have female friends who watch the show, max?

it bums me out that we can't talk about this show without creating a grand unified theory of rape conservation, which may be enough to stop me watching it all together (I'm already on the "no need to watch it live" bandwagon)

the washington post piece is v good, rosenberg's tv writing is always on point

Keep forgetting Theon killed two children.

only Mordy will get this reference (I suspect) but I kinda wonder if anyone has written a defense of GoT as a feminist text a la similar defense of the comic book Fukitor. Like, if Andrea Dworkin wrote a fantasy epic intended to address gender/sexual politics it would by necessity be chockfull of sexual violence, romance would be shown to be an empty cover story for exploitation and degradation, and it would undoubtedly be really unpleasant, kinda like GoT. Martin's politics do seem to lean left and he has done a fair amount to promote women in the industry etc. but it feels like there's a a disparity between those elements of his personality and the sort of lurid way sexual violence is handled in his material.

also in Martin's version all the women are 13 years old

those are westeros years. given the length of seasons that makes everyone like 30.

I don't even know what a year means in Westeros

If the critique was leveled as grrm as well as the show I'd understand it better but the Mary Sue piece seems to be arguing that the show did something wrong that grrm didn't and I don't understand what that is.

imo a year in westeros is like our normal year the thing theyre talking abt as far as winter is a part of some longer non year cycle, this isnt based on anything i havent read the books but they shd adopt my version its a better way to do the plot

and if theres one thing i know its what necessary in a plot u shd listen to me producers of wildly successful tv show

xps shakey, this might be what yr looking for

Did anyone read Alyssa Rosenberg's piece? I thought it was interesting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/05/19/game-of-thrones-has-always-been-a-show-about-rape/

― polyphonic, Wednesday, May 20, 2015 5:02 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

imo a year in westeros is like our normal year

marked by, if not the seasons then, ... what? are you telling me they've figured out that their planet orbits a sun? seems unlikely

yes I read the Rosenberg piece, which made me think of the Fukitor thing

Did Littlefinger bring Jeyne to the Boltons in the book?

yes

marked by, if not the seasons then, ... what? are you telling me they've figured out that their planet orbits a sun? seems unlikely

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, May 20, 2015 5:38 PM (35 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think they have seasons then they also have longer magical meta seasons i am just making this up but its better

it's kinda like ice ages and stuff

so there's like Winter with a capital double-u ice age winter and then regular annual lower-case winters?

that makes sense

thats what i think

In the books, does Littlefinger tell Cersei that Arya and Ramsay are about to be wed? I loved that detail in the show, but it doesn't seem like it would make sense with Arya since she didn't have a part in Joffrey's death.

Like, if Andrea Dworkin wrote a fantasy epic intended to address gender/sexual politics it would by necessity be chockfull of sexual violence, romance would be shown to be an empty cover story for exploitation and degradation, and it would undoubtedly be really unpleasant, kinda like GoT. Martin's politics do seem to lean left and he has done a fair amount to promote women in the industry etc. but it feels like there's a a disparity between those elements of his personality and the sort of lurid way sexual violence is handled in his material.

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, May 20, 2015

been thinking about this post and it is def not meaningful in any large way but still somehow jumps to mind that mzb turned out to be an irl-creep/possible monster

who is mzb

Marion Zimmer Bradley, probably?

ah of course

I don't remember there being a bunch of sexual violence in Mists of Avalon (which my gf at the time made me read) but maybe I'm forgetting something

Uh wow, I did not hear about MZB!! Sad because I really liked MOA.

i do not do not do not want to make this the mzb horrorshow thread but it's googleable

mzb google is legit bummertown usa, like chemical-brain-wash afterwards kind of reading

i was a fan & i still don't know what to do with that

Kinda curious how this particular type of tv audience would respond to Oz. Rape was a major part of that show and I ended up feeling sorry for characters I didn't previously think possible. Peter Schibetta got it really rotten.

yeah, i want to be sympathetic to people who are bristling about this rape scene but i'm struggling to see how it makes a lot of sense given the nature of this show. it's been established that it's a brutal, violent world and horrific things happen on a regular basis. TV Show Sansa has been rolled together with another character in the books and that character is abused to an even further extent. how would we even know at this point that it's gratuitous being completely unaware of what happens down the line? it wasn't filmed in a questionable manner either, it demonstrated the brutality of the act without doing it in some creepy, sexualized way.

is rape not a thing that should be broached in fiction, art, whatever? is all the other heinous shit that happens in this show OK?

I was annoyed with it on a couple of levels, but mostly because the scene seemed to be more "about" Theon/Reek than Sansa. Which really just made the rape seem like a cheap plot device. But we'll see how next week shakes out, I guess?

that Mary Sue article was bizarre. Writer claims to be fan of the books, knows about the much worse rape scene that this one is somewhat based on, and yet is so scandalized by the scene that the site is going to stop "promoting" the tv show. Why not give up on the whole series, books and all, after reading GRRM's rape scene? I can only imagine it's because this happened to Sansa, who seemingly was taking back control of her destiny, going goth and all.

i don't know how to articulate the reaction bcz it's one I share but i am not really into the way it's being interrogated itt

i mean, i know you all like lengthy chin-scratching posts about whys and yes-but-what-if

but it's also kinda removed & feels a bit like "kicking the rape-can around"

i'm not saying don't interrogate, but just know that not everyone is up for dissection of rape in the media or good rape vs bad rape

and i am gonna have to bail until the next episode airs & hopefully yall move on

every time i see the new high sparrow my mind goes BRAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZIIILL WHERE HEARTS WERE ENTERTAINING JUNE

I mostly remember the Lexus commercials

Infiniti.

May I request a new thread? This thing crashes whatever browser I try to read it on whenever I try and go back to load an entire week's worth of commentary. Possibly tomorrow or Saturday, so we catch all of this week's talk and then move to the new one for episode 7?

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