HBO adaptation of Game of Thrones - will this be just for nerds? (NO SPOILERS PLEASE)

xp You don't remember correctly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dance_with_Dragons#Characters

he does you know

as definitively dead as jon snow appears to be (unlike stannis as it happens, maybe brienne missed eh) there is a magic woman with powers bestowed from a god who's been known to resurrect people hanging around.

― Merdeyeux, Monday, June 15, 2015 11:50 AM (Yesterday)

Was thinking that myself. So wonder how permanent it is going to be.
Presumably does explain her turning up at that point if so, though don't know where else she would have gone.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHk9VZOWgAACaMI.jpg

Thought this was an okay season which, like the third, was redeemed by a pretty kickass last few episodes. The final scene was a bit close to misery porn for my liking though. :(

Also lol at GoT scriptwriters' Alanis Morrissettian concept of irony ("Jon always comes back").

xp You don't remember correctly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dance_with_Dragons#Characters

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/POV_character

A Dance with Dragons

Jon Snow - 13 chapters
Tyrion Lannister - 12 chapters
Daenerys Targaryen - 10 chapters
Theon Greyjoy - 7 chapters
Quentyn Martell - 4 chapters
Davos Seaworth - 4 chapters
Barristan Selmy - 4 chapters
Asha Greyjoy - 3 chapters
Bran Stark - 3 chapters
Jon Connington - 2 chapters
Cersei Lannister - 2 chapters
Victarion Greyjoy - 2 chapters
Arya Stark - 2 chapters
Areo Hotah - 1 chapter
Jaime Lannister - 1 chapter
Melisandre - 1 chapter
Varamyr Sixskins - 1 chapter (Prologue)
Kevan Lannister - 1 chapter (Epilogue)

Is she magic or just sometimes magic? Because it's possible Witchy Woman worships the god of coincidence, too. Either that or the fickle Red God told her to abandon Stannis and head back to help Jon Snow. But her Lady Macbeth deal has been pretty strong, so with Stannis (clearly) not dead, there is plenty of time for her prophecies to come true. It was impatient Stannis's fault for thinking they'd happen this season.

Lots of cliffhangers this season. Dany alone. Bros ride out to find her. Aria ... blind? Stannis ... whatever happened? Sansa and Theon jumping off a cliff. Jon Snow bleeding out. Anyway, I'd call this subversive storytelling - killing off or otherwise sidelining your strongest characters at a surreal clip - but I'm not sure Martin is that clever/mean. I think he really does see this fantasy show/story as a kind of history, where of course bad things happen at a rapid clip, over and over again. Yet it's hard to tell a story as TV/book entertainment (yay!) *and* as this-is-just-how-it-happened history (boo!) and keep it together, having it both ways. it's like his excuses for violence, rape, etc. "Well, this is the middle ages, when bad things like that really happened. Also, there are dragons and magic."

This episode really doubled down on an over-reliance on violence and sadism toward women as a means of storytelling shortcut, who if they aren't being tormented are more or less just literally sitting around, with as of yet no clear glimpse into their thoughts or goals or strategies. We know Cersei is a schemer. When will Sansa have some agency? Will she? What of Breanne? Is she just there as a perpetual honor guard? How about Witchy Woman? Will we ever know her inner workings, or is she just meant this be this vague boob baring figure? Even Dany has been weirdly passive; I'm not even sure why she was hanging in that Mereen shithole. At the very least, whatever happened to Aria resulted (as with Cersei) from her own theoretically bad decisions, which puts them on more equal footing with their equivalent male punching bags.

Anyway, tough show to watch, for many of those same contradictory reasons. It's a fun adventure fantasy but also absolutely no fun.

the impression i get is that ppl's reading of melisandre hightailing it was that she was fleeing for her life, but i think her abandonment of stannis was supposed to seem more significant.

http://i.imgur.com/DxmLEos.jpg

Mel was also shook that her god seemed displeased

or indifferent

The way I saw it was that she realized at that point that Stannis wasn't the rightful king and therefore wasn't the one the Lord of Light was backing

xxp

"NOW you tell me!"

On Melisandre's escape: it's hilarious how bad the show is at explaining this stuff. Perhaps we might get some satisfying explanation next season, but honestly odds are higher they'll think up some weird reason to have her raped, and then saved from a vengeful woman by a man.

Maybe her long game is just to one at a time convince everyone in the royal line to kill their children and then rush into battle, until there is no one left but her.

I wish this show were a little more clear with its magic. There is major magic: snow zombies, wargs, dragons, etc. No doubt. Then there is minor magic: walking into fire, seeing the future (maybe?). Then there is weird science magic: people back from the dead (maybe?) etc. It's just another frustrating inconsistency of Martin's real/not real world. At least in the middle ages what passed for magic was really some sort of science. Here, though, there is totally magic. Except when there isn't or when it doesn't work.

It's many times more clear in Martin's books. The show consistently fucks it up.

bviously the show compresses and expands time at will. Melisandre might not have been able to ride that fast to make it to the Wall when she did, but it was necessary for her to show up there to foreshadow Jon's probable resurrection. Who cares except you really. It's left fuzzy because we don't know exactly when things are happening in which place, which rings true for Medieval-ish times when peasants didn't find out shit about shit until months or years after it happened, if ever.

O

i once tried to figure out how much time was passing between scenes of The Room and it gave me vertigo.

YOU'RE TEARING ME APART DROGON

It's just another frustrating inconsistency of Martin's real/not real world. At least in the middle ages what passed for magic was really some sort of science. Here, though, there is totally magic. Except when there isn't or when it doesn't work.

this is a seriously dumb complaint

i understand the appeal of having firmly establish rules for magic but that is explicitly not what this story wants to do. in particular, the current context is that magic literally disappeared for generations, to the point where a lot of the population were and are skeptical about magic having existed at all (outside of dragons whose prior existence is clearly evident). magic has returned during the course of the narrative we are following and ppl are in the process of working out what it does and how. so as unsatisfying as it might be to have GRRM seen to make shit up as he goes along, he has built that licence in.

martin not having a magic "system" (as is common in the genre he works in) is one of his strenths imo. at least so far, magic remains mysterious, unexplained and unexplainable. the system approach is actually a sop to a more modern mindset i think.

last two posts otm

"why isn't magic in GoT more scientific" - josh in chicago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Sanderson#Sanderson.27s_First_Law

This show may not be, but that Wikipedia article is strictly for nerds

sanderson's right about the trade off, but i think if martin's whole approach is to do the "realistic" (for lack of a better word) medieval fantasy epic then he needs to go in this direction.

GRRM does well in showing people trying to figure out the new rules of magic. I agree, it's one of the strengths of the worldbuilding. The show just uses it as ways to gloss over holes in the narrative.

Keyes: You're in the wrong thread. I do like that my incisive questions has stayed with you all through the night, until you had to answer them in a completely different discussion. Like a poisoned kiss that only works once you get an erection, or hugs your dad, or whatever. Or poisoned honey. Whatever.

The Melisandre chapter in Dance with Dragons is pretty cool, actually.

Freddy B you moved the discussion here not me

Though I still lick your sweet words off the screen here

I kind of hate fantasy novels that have fully worked out 'systems' of magic. It's stupid and spark-smothering. If I want magic rules I'll play d&d (nb no dis intended to the game -- I play d&d regularly)

mel is a controversial character and going into her POV is a big deal. the show hasn't, possibly can't, accomplish what that one chapter does so while book ppl and show ppl are basically at a similar point in that narrative, book ppl have a just slightly more advanced understanding of a couple characters and plot points.

eh sorry if that is still too much book talk for this thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCqjR1gHyIQ

^both agree and lol at btw

Nah, I don't mean I need it all (er) spelled out for me. It's just that it makes the decisions the characters make confusing, and therefore our (my) enjoyment of the show erratic. So Red Witch has to be convincing enough that she can get Stannis to sacrifice his daughter, and at least in the show she's been at least as successful as, I dunno, God was in convincing Abraham. But then nothing (good) happens. And yet, she did give birth to a smoke demon earlier, which is nothing to sniff at. And then Cersei's man on the dark side, apparently he has the power to reanimate corpses. That's fine, but is that magic? Magic seems to be returning, sure, but has he (and red witch) just been hanging, waiting for their powers to manifest? Or have they always been a little magic but are now much more magic?

I dunno, if I went way back I bet I complained (probably) about this really early on. But it's one thing to exist in a world where dragons and zombies are rumors, or myth or history. But when dozens, or hundreds of people have now seen (or been eaten by) dragons or zombies, you'd think it'd be a lot easier to get more people on Team Magic. Again, don't need it to be black and white, but so many decisions in this show hinge on that distinction - magic y/n? - that it would be welcome as a viewer to get some better idea what's going on.

Another way one (I) can put it is: if anything can happen and there are no rules, then it is hard to invest anything that happens in this show with much meaning. For me, at least. Anything done can be undone. Anything dead can be brought back. And so on. It just doesn't built, as far as narratives go, to aim for a conclusion so much as just spin in perpetual motion. Which is cool, I guess, but given Martin has basically said it's all going somewhere specific, it'd be nice to see it start coalescing with some sense of logic. Again, just as a viewer, this viewer.

Doesn't seem built, sorry.

Hey, where are the other two dragons?

They're shut up in a cave somewhere, Dany occasionally fed some pompous noblemen to them earlier in the season.

So did she leave care instructions? Like, two scoops kibbles, one sheep, twice a day? Clean the litter box, etc? I'm worried about her dragons.

(See also: Direwolves)

Despite the source, this is a reasonable critique:

http://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/39ym6b/s5e10_this_show_has_changed_from_good_guys_will/

Or have they always been a little magic but are now much more magic?

i recall that in one of the places daenerys visited while she was wandering around there were dudes who it seemed had consistently been using magic as little more than an annoying parlor trick, but were now onto more serious stuff

I can't quite get my head around the face-swapping thing re Arya. MAGICS.

Wonder if Jaime goes ham upon Myrcella's death and declares war on Dorne, whether he'll have to flee KL upon arriving back there or stay to try and help Cersei, maybe organise a counter-coup against the faith? Hopefully he becomes interesting/evil again.

I want to know how old those MIA Stark boys are going to look by the time season 6 hits.

They'll have to use the magic of CGI to brush off their 5 o'clock shadows.

this show is good and im happy its punishing you all who richly deserve it

Question for Jaime is who is in control of the boat and where are they going to go now?