What can you tell me about Autism?

Fair enough B. My partner speaks highly of him and has all his books which I have never read. To an uneducated schmuck like me he is the *important* professor of autism studies guy she often quotes, I am guilty of unquestionably accepting someone's credentials without reading them. Well I did start Mindblindness but was bored rigid and put it down for something more to my interests.

Well, I guess it's because the first place I encountered him was, whenever anyone was hosting a debate about "Brain Gender" (and spurious topics attached to Neurosexism), he was THE Go-To Guy to stand up and say "Brains Are Totally Gendered!!!" and talk about how there are delicate pink ladybrains and true-blue EXTREME MALE BRAINS. And I watched while Lady Scientists and Lady Linguistics Professors and Lady Experts one after another, demolished his brain-gender arguments, and sorry, nice theory, bro, but the science and the facts and the research and the meta-studies just don't back you up.

And he would stand up and protest BUT MY THEORY OF EXTREME MALE BRAIN HELPS SO MANY AUTISTIC BOYS!!!! You are trying to TAKE AWAY a thing that helps men!!!!

Never mind how the theory of EXTREME MALE BRAIN!!!! is actually highly detrimental to autistic spectrum women and girls, and I am 99.999% certain that it was a factor in why it took me so long to be diagnosed; hey, I was even told, the first time I took a test that put me off the scale on Aspergers Traits, "Don't be silly, you can't have that, you're a girl."

Things I know from reading a shit-ton of books on brain development (and neurosexism) when I went through a little obsession with it: there are *multiple* intelligences in the human brain. There is maths-systems-logic intelligence. There is verbal intelligence. There is musical intelligence. There is "I can rotate 3-dimensional objects in my mind" intelligence. There is emotional and social intelligence. (There are others I've forgotten.) There is no gendering to these intelligences! Most people of all genders have some functioning in all these different types of intelligence, to scales of varying ability that differ with individuals.

Yes, it is really important to recognise that Autistic Spectrum Disorders (from what reading and research I've done, and been told by my therapist) affect a specific subset - it is the impairment of the Emotional and Social Intelligence set of functions that renders a person autistic. There may be impairments of other intelligences or other learning disabilities, but it's the specific Social Intelligence impairment* that brings the diagnosis of autistic spectrum. There is a subset of people who have serious impairments of the social intelligence functioning combined with above average maths-systems-logic intelligence. That is the specific set of traits that's grouped together as Aspergers. This is good science! This is helpful stuff!

*one of the best things I've ever read on these specific impairments and how they manifest is this: http://www.lifeonthespectrum.net/blog/?page_id=762

But when dude starts calling the social intelligence "lady-brain" and the maths-systems-logic kind of intelligence MALE BRAIN (TO THE EXTREME!!!!), that is not science. That is just stereotypes and sexism. And this is the fundamental BASIS of his whole theory! It's not a little added-on oops, ignore the weird opinions coming from an otherwise sensible person, like Pythagorus and weird thing about beans. It is foundation-level RONG-ness. Social != female! Logic != male! If this is your basement, your house will collapse.

But where Baron-Cohen jets off from eye-rolly Daily Mail style neurosexism into stratospheric level WOW NOT OK levels of ~PROBLEMATIC~ that would have him banned from every university in the country if he were, say, a feminist author rather than a respected scientist is:

He has ~opinions~ on Trans Men. Trans Men, says Baron-Cohen, are not men. They are autistic women. (I'm not sure how this works with the EXTREME MALE BRAIN and all, like, how can ~male brains~ be inside ~actual women~?) They are autistic women who have AUTISTIC FIXATIONS on masculinity, so therefore believe, VERY STRONGLY, that they are men! But of course they are not really Trans Men, they are actually delusional little autistic weirdoes who need Baron-Cohen's help. Right.

Like, how the fuck do you even parse something like that? Like, help me out, because I am aware that I have a Asperger's brain that just grinds to a halt when confronted with non-logic of this order. Male brains. Autism means ~Male Brains~. So how does a ~Male Brain~ get inside a woman? How? What? Either brains don't actually have a gender, or else, surely... if there really *IS* such a thing as ~brain gender~ as distinct from what I was talking about above, (with there being differing types of intelligences, and there *IS* such a thing as a ~Male Brain~) then surely a person with a Male Brain in their head would be a Man, and even in this bizarro-world, Trans Men are still correct, and they are in point of fact, still men. (Never mind that there are autistic women who are not trans, and trans men who are not autistic, which contradicts this little theory!) It's just staggering non-logic which veers from the territory of "just wrong" to "really fucking dangerous."

Because that whole argument of "trans people are not the gender they say they are" - when that logic appears in the mouths of Germaine Greer or Julie Bindel, there is debate and push-back and protest and people explaining why this is dangerous and wrong. But when it comes from the Great Male Scientist, it's... it's... ... ??? ?????????

There *is* a nugget of a thing under all that wrongness. It is totally true, that Apergers women often struggle with gender and the performance of it. Might that just be, because Gender is another of those confusing and perplexing non-logical social interaction unwritten-rules set of social conventions of the sort that ALL people with Aspergers struggle with? All people with Asperger's struggle with social conventions; the performance of Female Gender is a really bizarre set of social conventions; therefore women with Aspergers often don't "Do" gender very well. Isn't that a more ~LOGICAL~ conclusion than that Trans Men Are... Unicorns?

Sorry this is much longer than I intended (isn't everything I write on ILX?) But I find it really, really difficult, when I'm trying to look for useful or helpful information on this subject, but it seems so much of what ends up in the media, especially in this country, gets filtered through the mouth of this guy who, for me, needs a giant flaming bullshit detector before I will go anywhere near anything he says, and this is why.

Banging on at totally un-called-for length... about the manifestations of Asperger's.

I mean, I am into self-parody territory at this point, I am well aware.

Well that is a very comprehensive post B and makes me guilty about how poor I am at expressing my own internal shit. I can recall Andrea quoting some of that Male-brain stuff to me and I was nodding along without even engaging, but I lazily surmised B-Cohen was some kind of force for good. She is not evil or bigoted but is susceptible to ropey or cultist b/s sometimes. Years ago I had massive arguments when she went to this Son Rise Foundation meeting and was on the verge of donating money we could ill afford to these fucking hucksters who CURE autism. She is afflicted with a rare form of MS that is aggressively attacking her brain and motor functions and she is a shadow of the person she was a decade ago. Not really relevant to this thread but just trying to illuminate why someone's ability to make nuanced judgement can be affected by illness. Anyway that was a brilliant post B and I will c+p it to Andrea.

There *is* a nugget of a thing under all that wrongness. It is totally true, that Apergers women often struggle with gender and the performance of it. Might that just be, because Gender is another of those confusing and perplexing non-logical social interaction unwritten-rules set of social conventions of the sort that ALL people with Aspergers struggle with? All people with Asperger's struggle with social conventions; the performance of Female Gender is a really bizarre set of social conventions; therefore women with Aspergers often don't "Do" gender very well.

this is a really interesting insight!

No, this stuff is believable, because it's a nugget of truth wrapped up in stereotypes that are really, really prevalent! (Which is why I think it's important to try to counter it.) And then wrap that up and have it delivered by reassuring Big Science Expert.

When dealing with something so scary and disorienting happening to your kid, if someone offers some hope and an answer, of course you're going to try to take it! Even if one isn't dealing with a disease which is sapping one's own ability to function. (I mean, that in itself is just... so rough. I'm so sad for her, not angry.)

But yeah. Important to separate the spurious from the helpful because there is so much spurious out there.

the "male brain" is a horrible concept that SBC absolutely shd've disowned by now

fwiw I haven't read the book but I've read a few articles in which Silberman says that a) autism in women is underdiagnosed and more research should be funded and b) autistic people having no empathy is a myth, to pick two points contrary to Baron-Cohen opinions I remember being annoyed by

tbh I'm not sure that the emphasis on logic/systematisation is absolutely 100% helpful either. that's another subject and one I probably shouldn't get to have an opinion on, but here goes

just bcz: are we missing people who don't match that? are we doing a disservice to those who are diagnosed who might have other stronger skills but well-meaning adults keep reassuring them that logic is AS's necessary compensatory superpower?* is the stereotype doing a disservice to logical systematising non-ASD people (though, sure, tiny violin time perhaps)? and again, it's gendered: how might the whole men-be-logical/women-be-emotional dichotomy affect how women self-report their "systematising quotient", etc?

(* I have worked with a young autistic guy, diagnosed I suspect at an early age, who could not grasp the difference between AND and OR but who was convinced he should be a programmer because he had "a very logical mind". I felt sorry for him and very much hope he has found a more suitable career path tbh)

and also autistic spectrum disorders have a lot of overlap/comorbidity with disorders like ADHD and dyspraxia, which in my experience of having some symptoms of both/no diagnosis of either (so apologies if the following offends or is bullshit) can very much impede my personal logical and systematising abilities

afaict those comorbidities and ASD sensory issues also suggest another possible reason for autistic women tending not to be super-feminine: as a possible dyspraxic I totally don't do dressing up nice, doing my hair, wearing makeup because on a very basic level I don't get what finished effect I should be aiming for, don't get how to go about putting steps together to achieve that finished effect, and am absolutely too clumsy to get the steps right, plus I wear loose-fitting everything-covering clothes and plain soft textures for possibly sensory reasons, etc

^ all of the above stuff I'm not really qualified to talk about but it's interesting to me, sorry if presumptuous/clueless

As far as I remember, the scales B-C uses to measure 'systemizing' tap both ability and 'drive', whatever that means. I don't think he has ever satisfactorily defined systemizing, and certainly didn't explain why it should be on the opposite end of a continuum with empathy.

OK, I have just d/l the Silberman book because on that description it seems untainted with SBC BS. Also my Dad knows him and says he is a Very Smart Bloke so I'll give it a try. I just didn't want the very first book I read about Autism to be specious bullshit.

The "no empathy" thing was a sticking point for me, for a long, long time. And that is highly gendered, because we are all taught from birth that Women are the Empathising Sex and if you are female you will be much more highly penalised for not performing empathy. No empathy? Are you calling me a Failed Girl again? But also, like, the dictionary definition of Empathy, I *can* totally do that (I can't always do it at *speed*, in a conversation, and I am not very good at expressing it in appropriate ways). But actually reading that Triad of Impairments, from the point of view of other Aspies, and the stuff that is missing or impaired - it was just such a revelation, both in terms of explaining why I am really bad at the stuff I am terrible at, but also filing in gaps of "you mean some people can *do* that?" Sometimes when you have one of those kinds of impairments, you're not even aware of it as an impairment because it just does not exist. How can you tell if you have a blind spot if you have never seen it?

Also there is still so much stuff that is so gendered, in terms of social skills and "do you know when it is your turn to speak in a conversation?" has different *weights* for a woman speaking to a man, and a woman speaking to a woman. How do I recognise when I'm just being Bad At Conversation because I suck at the rhythm of turn-taking, and how do I know when A Man is just not ceding the conversation because he's a sexist pig who interrupts women?

I do have a quite good feeling for what the maths-systems-logic form of intelligence is, but the idea of putting it at the end of a continuum with "Empathy" at the opposite end is just... I am going to make a little joke now so please no one get offended, but this is just the kind of non-logic total fail of sense that ~neurotypicals~ seem to do and then call it a social convention and call you rude if you don't go along with their crazy-talk. Just... waht. No.

Silberman's defense of Asberger -- at least as glossed by Baron, for whom German seems to be an unknowably obscure language -- is seriously weak. I would like to say more, but the thread has moved on.

I have a real issue with the concept of "social skills", which seem to me completed loaded with social convention and reinforcing social norms (especially around everyone 'knowing their place' in groups and in the workplace).

As someone who self-idententifies on the Asperger's scale, I prefer to say that I can understand "social skills" - but can't always be bothered with them.

Michael Foley's book 'The Age of Absurdity' has a good section of absurdity in the workplace and how there's culture of work banter and professional 'humour' which is used to reinforce social norms:

Professional Humour (PH), a more sophisticated form of Professional Cheeriness (PC), is the key core competency, a universal facilitator and lubricant, but confusing to the untrained because, although the jokes must always be rewarded by hearty laughter, they must never be actually funny. This is because Professional Humour is not humour but facetiousness. Humour is a way of engaging with reality; facetiousness is a way of evading it. For instance, Professional Humour should always sound wickedly subversive while offering no threat whatever.

Established Colleague (withhearty roar): ‘Are you behaving yourself?’
New Colleague (lamely, not yet facetiousness-trained): ‘Yes.’
Established Colleague (with even heartier roar): ‘What a shame!’

And it should sound like savage abuse while remaining entirely innocuous.

Can't we find some more interesting ways to use our social skills?

(sorry for the rant)

Sorry, but it took me a couple of goes to parse your posts, and I'm still not entirely sure I've got it.

Partly because "can't be bothered to" is a real bugbear for me. Like, i have been accused, my entire life, WRT social cues, of people insisting that I am playing "can't be bothered" or "won't" when it was actually a "honestly, genuinely, just can't". And part of working with a therapist has been not just taking the tests, but going through the matrices of symptoms and patterns of how Asperger's manifests, and separating out the "can't" pile from the "won't" pile.

I think you may be talking about a different thing when you say "social skills" to what I would mean by "social skills". And also, social *skills* - they key is in the name. They are things that everyone, neurotypicals and autists, have to learn and master, though it's easier and more instinctive for neurotypicals because it's easier to learn a dance when you can "hear the music". Social skills, as I understand them (I may be wrong! I suck at this stuff!) are techniques people use to avoid being rude to other people, and to lubricate social interactions and make them smoother and easier for everyone involved. Social skills are like saying please and thank you and offering biscuits around before helping yourself and setting boundaries and recognising other people's boundaries and working out how to stay on the right side of them.

The kind of humour you're talking about, social ritual and social dominance... I don't *get* 90% of "humour", especially of the kind you describe. That kind of humour is basically cruelty as used to establish and maintain a social hierarchy, and to establish and maintain in groups and out groups as a kind of bonding humiliation ritual. I don't get that stuff. I don't understand it. It's not even "I can't be bothered with that" so much as "that's awful, and I don't want to be associated with that kind of awfulness." (Not to mention, the few times I've attempted to participate, I've messed it up and got it horribly wrong, to the point where the people I've tried to play those games with have had reactions not of "OK, that's funny" but "OMG, Branwell, that's *awful*!" OK, how am I supposed to tell the difference between awful and funny, because it all just seems awful to me?) I don't file that under "social skills" but under "interpersonal politics" which instantly engages my "avoid! avoid!" mode.

unfortunately some people think that not participating in that "in group/out group" meanness/banter/whatever is an act of rudeness in itself, which can make for more hidden pitfalls. you're right about learning to dance - no human is innately good at learning social codes, and there's a lot of degrees of awkwardness and just plain getting things wrong amongst neurotypical people too. which all adds to the potential horribleness of social interaction.

I'm not sure i have the energy to read through long complicated posts but girls that act both girly and maley is attractive

Kind of people you want to slap and pet at the same time

Dont mind me, i'll see myself out

Well here's a short post for you: FUCK. OFF.

maybe a post for the tyranny of humour but I'm someone who absolutely could not get from a to b socially without that particular motor, and I subscribe 100% to that deathless dlh post in that thread, and even so smh forever at ppl who come over truculent at ppl who can't or won't navigate this mode, like if the former is "tone deaf" the latter must be tone deaf dumb blind and stupid

i find myself regularly gently explaining to people at work that it's fine if banter is their default mode of professional communication but they shd at least have a think about whether the people they're using it on have got a clue what they mean by it

Like when i told my extremely religious coworker that zombies are real and I have proof. A little guy by the name of Jesus Christ. Then another coworker piped in about the resurrection of JC or something. I was sweating in my seat but luckily the extremely religious guy said "haha I get it. That's funny".

What a relief

Im a self-proclaimed absurdist and absurd humorist so i know a thing or too about the topics on hand when im not being slimey. But i like to think of myself as a cute slimeball if that makes anything better.

please go away

If ever there was a time for multiple fp's it is now

You are right, I should go away. But I do feel at home in autistic threads for whatever reason.

The science of gender is and will always be offensive. As far as I'm concerned, gender is a word that has lost all meaning because it's always dependent on context.

-

I'm offensive for different reasons and I do wholeheartedly apologize.

Anyways *uck gender. We should all be gender-less slimes and the world will be a better place.

Gender science is a rabbit-hole that only leads to nonsense.

You weren't making a controversial argument about gender and brain structure though, you were just being a fuck

Yes, I was talking with my sexual organs and that's what I am apologizing for.

I banned the Once-ler from this thread as their contributions really didn't seem helpful + got multiple flag posts. Hope that's okay with you guys/not too much of a mod abuse of power.

I was hoping for a 3-day sitewide, at minimum.

i have a feeling nature will take its course...

I've only seen the stuff on this thread and made a call on it being disruptive/douchey but not nec. part of a larger pattern - maybe make a Moderator Request Forum thread if you think it merits further action so as not to further sideline the interesting discussion on here? (NB not speaking as "voice of the mods" here, just my own take, willing to hear out other views.)

v good call mod

Thank you

figured this revive was going to be about this case -- http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/magazine/the-strange-case-of-anna-stubblefield.html?_r=0

there are some interesting issues re: consent, validity of sexual needs of disabled people, etc that i've seen touched upon elsewhere, but given that facilitated communication is so thoroughly discredited i'm not sure they're directly applicable here. woman is a straight up abuser and deserves the time she's gonna get

(btw I know the person in question is not autistic, but some of the same issues are raised re caring for profoundly disabled people that make it maybe appropriate for this thread )

For once, it would be great if, when mods saw a dude come in a thread, and pound his dick all over his keyboard and derail and borderline harass women in that space, that we did *not* have to start a mod request thread, and expose ourselves to the rubber-necking meta-banter of every board lawyer with an axe to grind while we make a case for our humanity and right to have a conversation without some asshole butting in and telling us his dick has opinions on our gender presentations and what it would like to do to them.

It would be nice if for once, a mod stood up and said "this is not how we treat women" and "behaving like this is not tolerated, and has actual consequences".

But no, today is not that day. (It is never going to be that day, huh.)

No, you're entirely right, you shouldn't have to do that. As it stands, no Mod Request thread has been started and it shouldn't be necessary. On this occasion (unless a mod was actively reading this thread) it looks like the Flag Post function did its job. If there was a slow response then apologies, that may be down to it having been Sunday afternoon.

Having looked at the user info, the poster in question is Captain Lorax, who received a permanent sitewide ban three years ago. Judging by his enthusiastic requoting of his terrible earlier posts on the Confederate Flag thread, this sort of behaviour absolutely IS part of a larger pattern and I don't see any reason why that ban shouldn't be upheld.

I thought that Lorax's sitewide ban from 3 years ago was self requested?

mods request

The plot thickens.

my son wandered off from the Co-op whilst I was in the queue tonight, the queue was only one deep and normally he just plays with the dog who is tied outside whilst i pay. He is 13 and non-verbal and with very poor spatial awareness around traffic and extremely vulnerable. After running in various directions in panic mode I went into the PC shop next to the Co-op and phoned the police and then ran almost a quarter marathon looking for him and went back to the Co-op, where their staff had discerned from the PC shop guy what was going on and were checking the CCTV footage. Then whilst I was running about the area like a maniac the police phoned me and asked me to return to the Co-op to identify my son on the CCTV footage and then go home, because they can't send out the search helicopter until they have checked he isn't at my house. I was in a bad state at this point and severely dehydrated, then he said we have a 100 officers on this, so go home. In my state I said "Bullshit" but there actually was shitloads of police in the area.

They found him on the edge of a neighbouring estate near the local high school about half an hour later. I actually hugged the copper who told me, whilst properly losing all remaining dignity and he was a big bastard and looked quite awkward!

I am glad I didn't hesitate to ring the police because they did a fucking amazing job. I am just glad his mum wasn't home and was at the local Town Hall when it happened. She went to a meeting about local A+E hospital closures and all I get is "I'm away for 5 minutes and this happens". But she is quite ill right now and the stress would have been bad.

I am looking into tracking chips tomorrow, because this is not happening again.

Jesus. Glad it turned out OK. Hope you get over the shock quickly.

I still can't sleep tbh, but at least in a good sort of elated and relieved manner, but jeez, Fuck me, what an evening.

On the positive side - what I did right was not hesitating calling the police and explaining his level of vulnerability well to them. At least that is the victory I am giving myself tonight, it still could have ended bad.

it's horribly easy for this kind of thing to happen, try not to make yourself feel bad about it dude, glad it turned out fine.

seems like you did exactly the right thing but fuck that must have been scary. was he ok after too? hope you get some sleep at some point

He was more than fine and in quite a giddy mood, it was all just a lark to him. Whilst I was giving the police a statement he was doing an opportunist kitchen raid on his rationed supplies of crisps and nutella, which is standard behaviour. Hitting the shiraz at 3am helped with the insomnia but oh dear I'm feeling rough as today, but still quite overwhelmed at the feeling of relief.

Today his school are going to try and teach him a social story about the dangers of his type of adventurism, hopefully some of that will stick to him.

damn man. that's some tough parenting hurdles.

We call him Notorious Al now, because since that incident he keeps getting recognised by different police officers throughout town. I still need to sort out some kind of GPS tracking device in case it ever happens again, I know it is built into most smartphones but that isn't really practical.

On Sunday we were out walking the dog and I took him back to where he was found by the police to see if there was any reason why he was drawn to that area. He seemed very interested in the hissing noise from the gas distribution point and one of the houses had a large pigeon coop in the garden. As odd as it sounds little things like this are a major attraction for him.

can see that. interesting noises and other sensory stimuli are definitely a big attraction to some autistic kids.

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/police-appeal-trace-vulnerable-boy-10889818

"David also likes travelling on the transport network and, when missing before, has been found on buses and trains." Hopefully this kid will be sat on a bus somewhere rather than finding danger, that love of travelling on buses and trains is so ASD typical.

Since Alex had his own adventure I keep googling these missing kid with autism stories. The frequency of this happening and the amount of times it ends badly says to me that GPS trackers should be essential safety equipment for ASD kids. Not that I have found a practical option yet, there is probably a massive gap in the market here for entrepreneur types.

could you put it on a belt buckle? Or sole of a shoe? These are probably stupid things for me to suggest but it's what occurs to me.

http://www.wareable.com/internet-of-things/the-best-kids-trackers