philip k dick C/D, S+D

"deleuze derrida and dick" is still probably the best class ive ever taken at any level of education anywhere

at least in terms of pure life-chaning wtfness

^^^that class sounds like exactly ("that century’s greatest science fiction writer". . . yeah riiiiiight) what I am lamenting above^^^

fwiw the prof is a sci fi fan but honestly alex id like to hear who you think is better??

sorry that came out a little aggro, i just mean that i dont think its a weird or ignorant claim to make at all!

lem, delany, moorcock, butler, le guin, herbert, bradbury, heinlein, asimov, sturgeon, vogt, bester, cordwainer smith, etc etc

^^ many of whom are subject to the same "transcending the genre" bs that alex in sf is complaining about upthread ... same reason i left, say, borges and atwood and john collier off the list

Tiptree, Silverberg, Brunner, Malzberg, Ballard, Kuttner/Moore, Knight, Clifton, Blish, Budrys, Kornbluth, etc

To be fair Dick did have more very good novels than most of these folks did, but I don't think he was the best writer of this group by ANY stretch of the imagination and I don't think any of stories would place in the top twenty of this group and maybe one of his novels might make a top ten.

When I say this group I am including a number of names from Vahid's list as well.

esp. Sturgeon and Bester who were NOT lucky enough to be able "transcend the genre" and consequently haved slipped in and out of print for the last 50 years despite writing novels and stories which wipe the floor with just about everything.

I'm kind of in both camps - as a fan of much of what moonship and alex have listed and also as a big booster of Dick's final "trilogy". Altho I can totally see Alex's point that Dick's best, more trad-sci-fi novels (Ubik, Stigmata, Maze of Death, etc.) are actually better written... I re-read Divine Invasion recently and it definitely rose in my estimation. But this is largely because Dick's own pet interests in theology/philosophy mirror my own, so it tends to resonate a little more. There's also something more nakedly emotional about that trilogy, they seem to come from a much deeper, personal place in Dick's psyche (whether that makes them better books is totally debatable, but they do have a heavier emotional impact on ME, as a result of their thematic content).

oh I think Bester totally transcended the genre (as has Moorcock on many many levels, among others).

I have yet to read a full-length Sturgeon novel that really blew me away though (feel free to recommend one!) What I've read has been really mired in 50s psychoanalysis - fairly common for the period, and not bad, but kind of Twilight Zone-ish.

(bear in mind I consider the Twilight Zone to be one of, if not THE best TV show ever so that's not entirely a knock)

Shakey read the (unfortunately titled) The Cosmic Rape.

I'll hunt that down... I read um, something with Medusa in the title and a bunch of his short story omnibus collections.

everyone knows sturgeon wrote for twilight zone, but did you know he wrote for star trek too?

I was aware of both of those tidbits yes

how about frederik pohl, he's pretty badass too

More Than Human is a classic, too, but I can see that some would find (the last section anyway) slightly dated.

Strangely I've never read a Pohl novel not written in conjunction with someone else.

sorry i didnt mean to imply that i thought dick was unequivocally the best sf writer of the century, nor that there arent plenty who had better novels (tho seriously fuck asimov, heinlein & vogt)--just that to call dick the "greatest sf writer of the 20th century" isnt exactly a spurious claim. i mean it sounds to me like this is all backlash--and alex i totally understand what youre saying, the whole "transcends his genre" stuff is crap and far too prevalant (esp. because dick was in a lot of ways one of the worst stylists in his genre). i mean i guess i can see why youre suspicious but it seems silly to automatically disqualify anyone as a sci-fi fan because they liked VALIS or think dick is the best in the century

btw seeing this at the top of new answers warms my heart:

philip k dick C/D, S+D [Started by toby, last updated 15 seconds ago] 44 new answers
who in this bitch reads robert jordan? [Started by di smith (lucylurex), last updated 1 minute ago] 33 new answers
Young Kirk n Spock + Lost = new Star Trek movie [Started by Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), last updated 2 minutes ago] 37 new answers

I am a big Pohl fan and have long considered Jem the best novel written about space colonization ever (besides maybe Red Mars, which takes a couple pages from it anyway). Space Merchants is also fantastic (sequel slightly less so).

"i mean i guess i can see why youre suspicious but it seems silly to automatically disqualify anyone as a sci-fi fan because they liked VALIS or think dick is the best in the century"

I don't think liking VALIS is a disqualification! I just think liking VALIS best makes me distrust your opinions! And stating unequivocally that Dick is the best sci-fi writer ever (cuz really what other century would you pick if not the 20th) is pretty suspicious too.

I think the reason why I give Kornbluth slightly more credit for The Space Merchants than Pohl is that the Syndic is so fantastic too.

haha well there are those whod argue that wells or verne are >>>>>>>>>> than dick

also alex stop drinking haterade valis is good

I was gonna say there ARE a couple 19th century sci-fi writers (field is pretty narrow tho)

It's just okay (xpost)

b-b-b-but the headfuck mind control antics of "second foundation" were ripped so many times by philip k dick

fuck i robot then

you're right about half of my list is probably not better than dick but certainly more interesting than deleuze or derrida

2 u maybe

if Bester had managed to turn out more novels I think he'd definitely be at Dick's level of critical acclaim/popular recognition by now. Too bad Golem 1000 was so bad.

"if Bester had managed to turn out more novels I think he'd definitely be at Dick's level of critical acclaim/popular recognition by now."

Oh right ONLY writing two of the five or ten best sci-fi novels EVER and a half-dozen of the best stories ISN'T enough for you haha he had to toil non-stop for the next twenty-five years into an early grave!

demolished man >>>>>>>>>>> minority report

haha what can I say I am a demanding mistress

Bester's two masterpieces are easily better than a lot of Dick's books and stories, no question

As good as his novels are, I think Bester's stories are even better. I think only Tiptree can really make a claim to writing as many masterpieces.

haha I checked this morning and the Sturgeon novel I ref'd upthread IS actually the Cosmic Rape, its just that the edition I have re-titled it "To Marry Medusa".

Well if that wasn't your bag def. try More Than Human. It's a quick read and well worth it.

Is there a Phillip K Dick book which you would recommend to me, who has never read him? Especially if you have read a bunch, and wish you had read a specific Phillip K Dick book FIRST?
I was tempted to read VALIS first, as Robert Anton Wilson has written on it's similarity to RAW's COSMIC TRIGGER - or would that be like listening to Bitches Brew before you listened to Kind of Blue?

Valis is a good starting point in the sense that it's not pure SF, but be warned that it's completely batshit insane. Ubik might be an easier way in.

or a collection of short stories, or something like Clans of the Alphane Moon

"A Scanner Darkly" is the best beginning point if you are thinking you might only read one book (you won't if you read it and like it, but at least if you don't like it at all you can probably stop there cuz it's probably the one book that's in everyone's top ten.) If you feel like you are going to probably read everything eventually start with something like "Clan" or "Time Out of Joint" or "Martian Time-Slip" or "Now Wait For Last Year", something early to middle sixties and then work your way around to the later sixties and fifties and then the seventies stuff like "Flow My Tears" and "Scanner" and then finally to the "Valis" trilogy and then read the fantastic biography "I Am Alive And You Are Dead".

You may find this thread helpful:

POX Phillip K Dick

Three Stigmata of Palmer Erdrich first.

I'd prop it up as the PKD with the best mix of WTFness/headtrippiness/gnosticism/actual comprehensible plot

Oh I'd just pick up whichever one seems most interesting to you, but I like things to not be that preplanned.

For example, I picked up The Simulacra first. It's the only novel I've read of his (but I've read all his short stories, A++), and it was way crazy and entertaining and WHOA. And I don't see it mentioned anywhere on this thredd.

I dig PKD, but I couldn't get into Counter Clock World. Folks reguritating their morning coffee into cups and saying "Mmm" was more than I could wrap the ol' skullprisoner around.