LAY OFF NATALIE MERCHANT

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more like the "ba-dum CRASH!"

btw 'sopoforic' is sophomoric and soporific put together, I just invented it.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:11 (eighteen years ago) link

To describe Low?

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:18 (eighteen years ago) link

sopoforic is french for spork

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:29 (eighteen years ago) link

sofrito porridge

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 7 August 2005 22:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Christgau is too quick with the cynical "oh, it's like sophomoric college student poetry" line there. I mean, they're just song lyrics. Too easy to just ASSUME that someone writing extended abstract lyrics like Natalie was doing then (as opposed to hip, chic, minimalist abstract lyrics) is taking themselves really seriously and is pretentious.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:14 (eighteen years ago) link

or to FIGURE IT OUT

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:17 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't know what you mean, Michaelangelo.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:21 (eighteen years ago) link

TS: easy to ASSUME vs. easy to FIGURE OUT these things

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:22 (eighteen years ago) link

I see. But do you see my point? Why are Natalie's abstract lyrics viewed as pretentious because they're lengthy whereas Oh-OK's abstract lyrics are not pretentious because they're cool and minimal?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:24 (eighteen years ago) link

uh because Oh-OK's lyrics mean something concrete maybe?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:25 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't know. I was thinking of the song "Choukoutien." Maybe they're not a great example. Christgau dislikes all abstract lyrics?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Sorry, Tim. You gotta be, as Xgau said, an acid casualty to look for any kind of sense in the excerpted lyrics. And it's a context thing: I know the song in which you'll find them! It's crap!

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:28 (eighteen years ago) link

no one who likes "Solar Prestige a Gammon" as much as Christgau does could be said to dislike abstract lyrics. so I suspect it's something else. (xpost)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Natalie's lyrics in that song are pretentious because they're a failed attempt at poetry. It's pretty obvious.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Looking at it now, that song's actually not very abstract at all. It's about a famous Spanish bullfighter named Manolete. I maintain that if Oh-OK had written a song about Manolete and it had hip minimalist lyrics Christgau mighta loved it.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Where's Billy Mackenzie when you need him.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:40 (eighteen years ago) link

"hip minimalist lyrics"--what does this even mean?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Recitations of the alphabet. Which, in fact, Mackenzie did once, so my cri du coeur has a relevance I now realize.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:42 (eighteen years ago) link

"Homage paid to the victor of immortality/Cloaked in bold tones."

Dude, what's fuckin' minimalist about this? It works in as verse, not as song lyrics.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:43 (eighteen years ago) link

And combined with Merchant's high-pitched, ethereal voice it was well nigh unbearable.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:45 (eighteen years ago) link

no, he's saying that isn't minimalist, and that if something equally completely sophomoric and nonsensical and pretentious had, I guess, been written by a CBGB's habitue that Christgau would've loved it. there are loads of negative reviews of just those kinds of things that blow this theory out of the water.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:46 (eighteen years ago) link

But I doubt Christgau would have defended them anyway. Tom Verlaine wrote some goddamn abstract lyrics, but they didn't use thesaurus verbs like "clothed."

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Ah, but he loved Oh-OK (who are actually a pretty decent band with whom to compare early 10,000 Maniacs). I SUSPECT that people could not (and still cannot) tolerate Natalie because of the Romantic connotations of her lyrics. It was so obvious that she was trying to be Lord Byron!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:49 (eighteen years ago) link

I doubt Christgau's purported aversion to Byron, Shelley, and Keats is to blame for his Maniacs hate.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:50 (eighteen years ago) link

after all, he liked Kate Bush and Bryan Ferry.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:50 (eighteen years ago) link

that must be why he hated Patti Smith and Joni Mitchell so much, then, eh? (xpost)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:51 (eighteen years ago) link

haha "thesaurus verbs"! can I steal this Alfred?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Right, but Kate Bush is goofier maybe? And so doesn't lend herself to these assumptions of pretentiousness.

x-post

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:52 (eighteen years ago) link

um, no one in their right mind would call Kate Bush unpretentious!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:53 (eighteen years ago) link

If I'm feeling persnickety I could pretend to wince at "Marquee Moon"'s opening line ("I remember how the darkness doubled"); but the twin guitar interplay is so compelling that by the time those lyrics come around I'm in their sway.

With my blessing, Matos.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:53 (eighteen years ago) link

also no one in their right mind would call Patti Smith "goofy" either

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:55 (eighteen years ago) link

But she is goofy! She's fuckin' daft! We love her because she's full of shit (and hate her for the same reasons).

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:57 (eighteen years ago) link

right but her manner never suggests "goof" even when she's letting her hair down proverbially speaking. she's a visionary on a vision quest. (note: this is an attempt to parse her persona and is not an actual judgement on the author's part.)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:58 (eighteen years ago) link

"SUDDENLY JOHNNY GETS A FEELING HE'S BEEN SURROUNDED BY...HORSES! HORSES! HORSES!"

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Right, Patti Smith worked because she was sort of deadly serious.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 August 2005 23:59 (eighteen years ago) link

10,000 maniacs couldn't hold oh-ok's jock on their BEST day

patti smith was pretty goofy when i saw her in concert a couple years back but it was momentary, she went into season of the witch mode (ie. why people cared) and still pulls it off

stipe all over this thread

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Sounds kinda sticky.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Athens vs. upstate!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Natalie = neither goofy nor deadly serious. Ergo, objectionable.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:02 (eighteen years ago) link

haha come on dude! that formula is stretching it BIG TIME

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:03 (eighteen years ago) link

I was goofing.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:03 (eighteen years ago) link

not to mention that early Natalie (hell late Natalie) was deadly seriousness on toast (= much of her appeal)

OK, got it Tim.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:04 (eighteen years ago) link

She was one of the wonders of God's creations.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Athens vs. upstate!

10km's "upstate"-ness was always one of my favorite things about 'em. for all their early attempts to be worldly it's kinda clear (to me) that they were culturally pretty backwards. upstate towns are all stuck in a 1920-1962 time warp, more twilight zone dead-factory creepy-christian than post-victorian antiquing-town twee.

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:54 (eighteen years ago) link

and natalie was like this autistic dowdy catholic girl who somehow landed herself a band.

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 8 August 2005 00:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Nice thread -- particularly great to see Nitsuh repping for the 'acs. Tried hard to get a promo of the best-of to write about for Pitchfork, maybe to kick-off a reappraisal, but Nitsuh is clearly the writer for the job.

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 8 August 2005 01:55 (eighteen years ago) link

some real good audio here -- scroll down to the "10,000 maniacs with natalie merchant" part. the 1990 hope chest peel session (w/ john lombardo in tow) is LOVELY.

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 8 August 2005 01:57 (eighteen years ago) link

the more i listen to this stuff, the more i miss how bloody good 10km used to be, even if just for three or four years.

― my favorite cover band, crystal shit (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 8 August 2005 02:04 (eighteen years ago) link

somewhere upthread i disagree with something someone said, but i forgot what it is and i can't even remember if i like natalie merchant or not.

i do like one song off that natalie merchant solo album, however. the name of it escapes me. the song and the album, both.

this is part real forgetfulness, part pretend forgetfulness.

― gear (gear), Monday, 8 August 2005 02:38 (eighteen years ago) link

You were saying something negative about the Hope Chest anthology CD, but you actually had not heard this collection when you made the comment.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 8 August 2005 02:52 (eighteen years ago) link

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