Refugee situation / EU response - rolling news

the German interior ministry said 31 people had been identified as being involved in the violence, of whom 18 were asylum seekers suspected of crimes ranging from theft to assault. None of the asylum seekers was suspected of committing sexual assaults of the kind that prompted outrage in Germany over the past week.

How common are sexual assaults in Europe? They are so incredibly common in the United States (one every two minutes) that I would not imagine that the number of assaults carried out by a percentage of migrants tops what we already have. (Hence, if true, zero cultural difference at all.)

I'm surprised it's controversial to suggest there's a cultural difference in views on gender equality between "western" and "arabic" world

I've heard it suggested that leftists think all cultures are alike but always thought this was a strawman...

Who finds it controversial?

glad to hear there's no place for sexual assault in western values

Yeah, I didn't say zero cultural difference on views of gender equality, I raised the question of whether it's ultimately zero cultural difference in terms of the number of actual sexual assaults.

i'm not surprised a strawman think's it's controversial to do anything at all, that's what they do

The idea that MENA cultural values are behind any crimes, rather than any of the other reasons young men emboldened by the perceived anonymity of crowds might commit them, is poisonous orientalist nonsense. The main takeaway from the list of fucked up interactions between a proportion of migrants / tourists / foreign workers - whether British, Moroccan, American or Chinese - and women is that people frequently tend to behave in ways that run counter to their "cultural values" when they can view the women as 'other' and think they can get away with it.

There can be situations in which what codes as persistence in some cultures reads as sexual harassment in others (which is also true within Europe and within individual countries) but nobody commits criminal assault through an ignorance of 'western norms' or an adherence to alternative cultural values. To suggest otherwise is phenomenally dangerous.

Thank you.

Seconded.

Mordy, you need to (hopefully re-)screen "Battle of Algiers" right now.

Or rather, don't. It hurts to realize you've been an oblivious, unrepentant unmensch all your life, along with (mostly) everyone else. I know because I realized about a week ago and I'm still reeling.

I caught myself looking for ways to identify Syrians so I could put on an encouraging face to help them with their plight, while reserving my good old frowny face for the 'old' immigrants, people I was taught BY SHEER BODY LANGUAGE by my peers not to trust.

A collective negative feedback loop, that nobody but nobody sees the whole picture of, a human forest fire and it would be very easy to stop if everyone woke up and got their act together.

Are bullshit and hypocrisy synonyms I do not have the language.

Or even a positive feedback loop.

So how I'm attempting to fix this is to be as nice to random strangers as I would be to, say, my mom, unless I can't pull it off without making it seem like they owe me something.

Growing up, after 37 years, is exhausting

Remember that Jack Handey joke with the knife in the jack'o'lantern

Being a melanomically challenged person in Germany rn means getting handed pumpkin after pumpkin after pumpkin in the street BY EVERY PERSON YOU PASS

Kafka, Theresienstadt, Polanski's fucking Pianist, we have not learned a thing, not where it counts. We're looking for our lost keys in the wrong place because the light is better.

Yes I'm preaching sue me

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/01/when-are-you-really-an-adult/422487/

Adulthood is a social construct. For that matter, so is childhood. But like all social constructs, they have real consequences. They determine who is legally responsible for their actions and who is not, what roles people are allowed to assume in society, how people view each other, and how they view themselves. But even in the realms where it should be easiest to define the difference—law, physical development—adulthood defies simplicity.

It doesn't

1. Obey your local laws, unless they make you an unmensch
2. Treat everyone - even Assad, when you meet him - like a close relative

That's it. Seriously. Love is literally all you need.

melanomically challenged

Are you kidding me

You think snarky comments make you, or the commented upon, a better person

Signing off. I'm fezaffe btw, I insulted the dear departed liz:x by remembering her, please ban me

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/09/my-syrian-refugee-lodger-helen-pidd

Ha looking back now at Mordy's 'Germany must aggressively keep tabs on all refugees who enter' I am fugoggled by its authoritarianism (and frankly I'd imagine him to be more aware of the unfortunate historical resonances in such a stance)

I'm fezaffe btw

I don't know who that is, sit down

The idea that MENA cultural values are behind any crimes, rather than any of the other reasons young men emboldened by the perceived anonymity of crowds might commit them, is poisonous orientalist nonsense. The main takeaway from the list of fucked up interactions between a proportion of migrants / tourists / foreign workers - whether British, Moroccan, American or Chinese - and women is that people frequently tend to behave in ways that run counter to their "cultural values" when they can view the women as 'other' and think they can get away with it.

There can be situations in which what codes as persistence in some cultures reads as sexual harassment in others (which is also true within Europe and within individual countries) but nobody commits criminal assault through an ignorance of 'western norms' or an adherence to alternative cultural values. To suggest otherwise is phenomenally dangerous.

Very good post, though I must admit I'm not entirely convinced cultural values have no bearing on crimes commited. Sexual assaults in the West are linked to Western values, right?

Anyway, I'd like to convince myself that you're right. Not so sure I'll be able to convince other people, though.

I suspect those are not the Western values Mordy is referring to. I'm not a sociologist but sexual assault seems both entirely universal and usually inversely proportionate to the effectiveness of domestic police. Talking about a "clash of cultures", which even a lot of liberal commentators are trotting out, essentially boils down to 'it is in their nature to rape and our nature to stop them', which is fatuous on a number of levels.

It would be naive to think that there are not law and order issues related to a sudden influx of people who have no direct ties to community yet, no legal right to work, nothing much to do all day and whose prior records can't be effectively checked but using 'eh, that's just what they're like' when issues occur doesn't strike me as the most useful starting point.

Similarly, there can often be a lot of issues more directly related to gender and equality with immigrant groups of all stripes and entry routes but the most effective ways to combat them tend to actively seek out the participation of women from those communities rather than demonising the whole.

As TWU indicated, the sequence of crimes is still being properly investigated but the Polish government has just used the 'clash of cultures' narrative to ban all Muslims from seeking refuge. Feeding that narrative carelessly is not without consequence.

It's actually quite difficult to piece together what happened in Cologne, especially as the police apparently decided to just stand by and let it happen. How credible are the reports that the assaults were "co-ordinated", as opposed to a general snowballing of behaviour akin to riot? I'm assuming the answer to this is 'not very'.

I don't really get what happened either. The bbc was reporting that a police officer was dismissed because he didn't identify the alleged perpetrators by ethnicity. I gather we're in the usual thin blue line period.

the only thing I know about possible coordination is an interview in the Bildzeitung where the Minister of Justice talks about his suspicion that there was an agreed-upon date and time, no evidence whatsoever. AFAIK snowballing/riot/mass psychology/... seems like a much better guess.

Yeah, there was an interview with Der Spiegel as well where he said that it happened after coordination, or perhaps a vote. But his proof is apparently just, that it makes sense that way...

That said, I've heard that the police are suspecting links to organized crime. Ie that it has more to do with the robberies than the assaults. Which seems quite possible.

There are organized pickpockets in any major European city. Have been for decades, maybe longer.

Right, but this is a quite peculiar method.

Oh is it, officer?

Yeah, according to the officers. Wtf?

When and where did "the officers" say this?

Gangs attacked groups of foreigners in four separate incidents on Sunday in Cologne, the city where dozens of New Year’s Eve assaults on women took place, German police have said, as the government warned against letting the incident lead to suspicion of all migrants.

Cologne police said on Monday afternoon that the victims were two Pakistanis, two Syrians and a group of Africans.

Police said they had stopped and checked 153 people on Sunday evening, 13 of whom were known members of far-right organisations and a further 80 of whom belonged to rocker gangs.

what IS it about white german culture?? wait don't answer that

"rocker gangs" = Denglish non-translation, means hardcore biker gangs.

Polish papers were leading with "Refugees Rape Their Way Across Europe" last week. Russia's main tabloid opts for "Could Cologne Sex Jihad Happen In Moscow?"

http://i.imgur.com/CwGqn2x.jpg?1

Making preparations to move far, far away from Cologne before carnival.

I guess that makes me a refugee :O

Switzerland to follow Denmark in stripping refugees of their valuables when they enter the country:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/15/switzerland-joins-denmark-in-seizing-assets-from-refugees-to-cover-costs

what the fuck

take an administration fee, sure, take a tax upheld by statute but taking WHATEVER 'over 1000 francs' is just fucking thuggery!!

there's speculation in Danish media that the proposition is a hoax that'll never pass parliament but will work as effective anti-asylum PR - hasn't been passed yet, legalities of it all very unclear

The Swiss aren't proposing -- they are doing it already. It's not entirely clear when the practice started. Another pretty bad translation alert: the word translated as "undignified" was very likely "unwürdig", which in this context means more "inhumane" than "unseemly".

still misleading that article talks abt "a practice that has drawn sharp rebukes for Denmark" when it's not practised

but ofc absolutely idiotic idea

Presumably this is meant primarily as a deterrent? Rapidly cut down on the number of refugees entering your country by sending the message that it would be financially punitive to do so, thus diverting them elsewhere. I wouldn't have thought that the flow of refugees into Switzerland would have been particularly high in the first place. I'm guessing they won't be the last country to try this.

and all this is going on while Germany is still v dovish on immigration. one can only imagine which ugly measures will be proposed by the other Member States when the last dove in the room turns into a hawk.

Switzerland's on a through-route from the southern EU to the promised land, and some refugees have gotten stuck. There have been some bad stories about poor treatment.

it appears that Bern started doing this before the refugee crisis; last year 112 people had to pay.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/schweiz-nimmt-fluechtlingen-geld-ab-a-1072143.html

It's not clear at all when the practice started -- no indication in that article.