Il Douché and His Discontents: The 2016 Primary Voting Thread, Part 4

It's uncomfortable for an old man to make an uncomfortable statement like that but im not sure its a cause for concern, would be interested in hearing other perspectives

If by "cause for concern" you mean whether Sanders is racist, then no, I'm not concerned.

from the transcript:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/06/the-democrats-debate-in-flint-mich-annotated/

...I was with young people active in the Black Lives Matter movement. A young lady comes up to me and she says, you don't understand what police do in certain black communities. You don't understand the degree to which we are terrorized, and I'm not just talking about the horrible shootings that we have seen, which have got to end and we've got to hold police officers accountable, I'm just talking about every day activities where police officers are bullying people.

So to answer your question, I would say, and I think it's similar to what the secretary said, when you're white, you don't know what it's like to be living in a ghetto. You don't know what it's like to be poor. You don't know what it's like to be hassled when you walk down the street or you get dragged out of a car.

And I believe that as a nation in the year 2016, we must be firm in making it clear. We will end institutional racism and reform a broken criminal justice system.

From the piece I posted upthread:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/07/bernie-sanders-says-white-people-dont-know-what-its-like-to-live-in-a-ghetto-about-that/

Additionally, more than 70 percent of black Americans are not poor, and some share of these people have never lived in a ghetto either. Yet black Americans are more likely to live in a neighborhood with lower-quality public facilities (think parks, libraries, schools, stores, etc.) than white Americans with less income. This pattern points directly to the continued existence of housing discrimination, and it's many forms, but we digress.

Also true: Black Americans up and down the income and education scale are far more likely than white Americans to experience some form of hostile, unethical, inappropriate or illegal contact with the police. So the other part of Sanders's answer, the part when he implied that some person told him that black people are mistreated by police only in certain neighborhoods; well, that's also false.

Like stories about race-related taxi pass-bys, if we wanted to, we could collect 100 such personal tales from black Americans who have been middle class or more all their lives in a single hour tonight. That's the thing about policing that differs according to the color of a person's skin. That's an immutable part of one's appearance. And it's skin color that shapes who gets stopped by the police most often and what happens once such a stop occurs. It is not one's income, not one's address or deportment and certainly not one's outfit. It is skin color and the links that some officers believe exist between race and criminality. When police stop someone, they run a warrant check. They don't ask for or try to gauge the content of anyone's resume.

Quite frankly, that's the kind of thing that someone running for president in 2016 should be able to demonstrate that they know.

The Trump campaign has no pollster, so it is governed by public polling and what the candidate himself observes while watching cable news.

the best organization, the best, just terrific.

Putting Sanders's quote in context, as goole has, helps. If you regard the "you don't know what it's like" passage on its own, it looks like he's saying that white ppl just can't grok precarity (my new favorite word). But if you read it as an extension of the paraphrase of the Black Lives Matter voice in the previous paragraph, it makes more sense.

jesus christ wtf happened to Mary Matalin's face? She looks like Steve Strange.

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/abf6a7ec2ef96e20ec75dbd88c471678fe49611f/c=105-0-1040-703&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2016/03/06/DetroitFreePress/DetroitFreePress/635928720168132637-Screen-Shot-2016-03-06-at-2.27.41-PM.png

@ppppolls
Marco Rubio's at 5% in the Ohio poll we'll release later today. 33/51 favorability with GOP voters

From DJP's quote:

And it's skin color that shapes who gets stopped by the police most often and what happens once such a stop occurs. It is not one's income, not one's address or deportment and certainly not one's outfit. It is skin color and the links that some officers believe exist between race and criminality. When police stop someone, they run a warrant check. They don't ask for or try to gauge the content of anyone's resume.

Quite frankly, that's the kind of thing that someone running for president in 2016 should be able to demonstrate that they know.

Did the writer of that piece not hear the anecdote Sanders told immediately before the BLM one?

SANDERS: Well, let me just very briefly tell you a story. When I was in one of my first years in Congress, I went to a meeting downtown in Washington, D.C. And I went there with another congressman, an African-American congressman. And then we kind of separated during the meeting. And then I saw him out later on. And he was sitting there waiting and I said, well, let’s go out and get a cab. How come you didn’t go out and get a cab?

He said, no, I don’t get cabs in Washington, D.C. This was 20 years ago. Because he was humiliated by the fact that cabdrivers would go past him because he was black. I couldn’t believe, you know, you just sit there and you say, this man did not take a cab 20 years ago in Washington, D.C.

Lord Alfred, I'm getting more of an Izzard vibe from that pic

http://www.topaccountingdegrees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/8.-Eddie-Izzard-GÇô-Comedian.jpg

Did the writer of that piece not hear the anecdote Sanders told immediately before the BLM one?

From the same piece, which I recommend reading:

Sanders talked about something personal. And that was what Lemon appeared to ask for. But when Sanders talked about his shock that 20 years ago a black colleague and congressman in Washington stopped trying to hail taxis to avoid what Sanders described as the humiliation of taxi drivers's refusal to pick him up, he kind of turned left. (For those unfamiliar with how this experience typically works, it's usually something like this: Taxis with their rooftop available signs turned on refuse to stop, speed up or turn off the sign as they approach a black person trying to hail a cab.)

In fairness, there probably isn't a lot of street hailing activity in Vermont. But because Sanders spends most of his time in Washington, he should probably at the very least be aware that no part of his story could not also be told by black Americans living in many other major metropolitan areas about their transportation experiences. This is an ongoing problem, not one that existed 20 years ago that has since faded away.

So the other part of Sanders's answer, the part when he implied that some person told him that black people are mistreated by police only in certain neighborhoods; well, that's also false.

from the transcript

A young lady comes up to me and she says, you don't understand what police do in certain black communities. You don't understand the degree to which we are terrorized, and I'm not just talking about the horrible shootings that we have seen, which have got to end and we've got to hold police officers accountable, I'm just talking about every day activities where police officers are bullying people.

perhaps the writer is referring to a different answer bernie gave?

a shame having the gravitas of a 12-year-old boy hasn't worked out for Marco.

why does anyone expect to learn anything from the "debates"? other than what Republicans of yore Clinton loves.

‏@DennisThePerrin
Please tell me that before she passed, Nancy Reagan endorsed Hillary.

who is Dennis Perrin btw

'A young lady comes up to me and she says, you don't understand what police do in certain black communities.'

perhaps the writer is referring to a different answer bernie gave?

― k3vin k., Monday, March 7, 2016 2:49 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i guess the key word is "certain" black communities

But because Sanders spends most of his time in Washington, he should probably at the very least be aware that no part of his story could not also be told by black Americans living in many other major metropolitan areas about their transportation experiences. This is an ongoing problem, not one that existed 20 years ago that has since faded away.

I think this writer completely misreads Sanders's anecdote here. I didn't for one second read it as saying that this shit only happened up to 20 years ago within the District of Columbia.

Oh dear god, please stop. Just stop.

He's been asked about his racial blind spots and he's answering candidly about experiences that opened up his eyes, one of them being about how even a congressman in downtown DC can't get a cab, if he's black. Where in all this is he suggesting that racism is just a neighborhood-specific thing?

Sunday was the first time I've seen Matalin all year. I guess she was sent out as part of the panic-squad.

x-post: Check out four posts above you.

I even bolded it.

yeah to me that's awfully picky. but it's a good piece nonetheless, and if it clarifies things for some readers, great

That's where I'm a Viking strong itt

I read your post Frederik, and I disagree with your interpretation.

I think like Morbz is Snoop & Dennis Perrin is Dr. Dre

Mordy = Tim Dog

xp re: DJP's link

The writer of that piece makes her point very well and it was a point worth making. She used Sanders' answer in the debate as a springboard from which to propel the reader toward her point. But this is a fairly normal case of a writer shaping the discourse more to make her point than to describe exactly what Sanders said and the circumstances in which it was said.

tbf, she does start her piece recognizing the flaws in the question before moving on to the flaws in Bernie's answer, but there is little recognition that the candidates onstage must absorb the question and form their answers at once and on the fly, while the writer has the luxury of time to form many thoughts, examine them, reject some, reshape others. This gives her a superior platform from which to chide or correct what was said in haste and under pressure.

She didn't do too badly at limiting her critique to what was fair and honest, but the ILE echo chamber shouldn't be distorting her point as reflecting some important lacunae in Bernie's ideas or positions, but only the lacunae that existed in a particular answer, made on a public stage to a flawed question asked only moments earlier, and answered under a time limit. How well would any of us done in the same circumstances?

^v helpful formulation Aimless, thank you

if you won't believe what police do in certain communities, then you'd be doubly shocked to realize black people get the same treatment or worse outside of those communities!

So much Bernie-splaining in this thread right now, I can't take it. Taking a break. Last thought: It's Bernie who NEEDS to be understood by minority voters, he needs to reach out, and he needs to have some fucking stump answers ready that doesn't mention the word 'ghetto'. It's HIM that needs to be understood, not black or hispanic voters who need to understand him. They're quite happy in this election without him.

God dammit, parsing the response to something unlucky he said, to show that, really, the response isn't totally fair. Good job! Argh

Sorry, promised to take a break. Closing my laptop now. Bye.

buhbye

that wasn't a slam on Sanders, just on the misperception of racism being a class issue. the anecdote about the taxi was meant to be somewhat of a generalization, but leaving in the twenty years ago framing was probably bad

unless the point was "I had a black friend, but it was 20 years ago"

see ya

ty Fred B for that v helpful hand-wringing. it would be nice if Bernie were a superhero and able to run the perfect campaign to overcome all the natural obstacles that exist between him and his election in November. it would be very nice indeed. but I think we'll all just have to live with him as he is. we're somewhat used to imperfect candidates.

imo something can be a partisan over-scrutinization but still make good points, no need to take it literally as a universal gotcha where this is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back of his campaign

http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/4c270d22-401b-4f59-8c4f-ded233f4d64c/13ba1a5c-3069-4c20-aee4-9830ec8d1f36.jpg

Lol left

So much Bernie-splaining in this thread right now, I can't take it. Taking a break. Last thought: It's Bernie who NEEDS to be understood by minority voters, he needs to reach out, and he needs to have some fucking stump answers ready that doesn't mention the word 'ghetto'. It's HIM that needs to be understood, not black or hispanic voters who need to understand him. They're quite happy in this election without him.

― Frederik B, Monday, March 7, 2016 8:18 PM (14 minutes ago)

oh dear god, please stop. just stop.

^ the last words the creator heard before moving on to a new worldbuilding simulator

Fred B's message: he cares

I find most discussion of this subject exhausting tbh, both the micro-parsing of Sanders' language on race and the wheel-spinning by supporters to explain it away. Largely because I just don't think anyone has made a case that Clinton is genuinely better on any of these issues, other than perhaps being better at talking the talk.

this thread now features:

..and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes.

as well as:

oh dear god, please stop. just stop.

RIP Freddy B

imo something can be a partisan over-scrutinization but still make good points, no need to take it literally as a universal gotcha where this is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back of his campaign

― μpright mammal (mh), Monday, March 7, 2016 3:24 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm. more analysis, more discussion, less bizarre performative outrage

I was the one most guilty here of getting defensive about Sanders's comments ... which is ironic, given that I was (and remain) critical of it. I was def reacting to a certain "gotcha" vibe that I was getting, that felt to me like it was ignoring context.

Anyhow, I feel like Aimless's & mh's posts upthread tied everything beautifully in a ribbon, and are beautiful formulations of how to think about these things without getting knee-jerky about it.

I'll take that as an ilx happy ending.

um, critical of them

losing my grammar

at least 40% of this is libs with a modicum of conscience self-negotiating around "Christ, i'll have to suck it up and vote for Hillary in November"

brutal moral calculus of living in a swing state