Il Douché and His Discontents: The 2016 Primary Voting Thread, Part 4

'But white working-class Americans (like all Americans) should be offered some shelter from those changes, some sense that they will be okay, that they are still part of the American Us, no matter what.'

Honestly the problem seems to me more that the Trumpits don't consider the new 'American Us' to be legitimate. They've fought tooth and nail to exclude as many people as possible from the old 'American Us', and they still aren't ready to accept reality. I don't think the new 'American Us' will be particularly inclined to forgive them, btw. Sad, but true. Also, I don't particularly think they have to, pragmatically speaking.

And I think the article is pretty a-historical. It glosses over that the self-same white right-wing voters has supported the politicians that took away things they used to have, that the new deal coalition fought for. And why did they vote for this? Why did the democratic new deal coalition lose white working class voters for a generation, even though republicans did nothing for them? Because of civil rights.

Please don't use the word "us"

Lol, that's really hard when discussing an article talking about it. Combined with the fact that I put 'us' in '''s, and that I don't particularly care what you think = nah.

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-i-don-t-care-what-you-think-unless-it-is-about-me-kurt-cobain-43-19-27.jpg

Can we just autoreplace all frederik's posts on this thread w something less patronizing like idk pics of puppies

Xxpost

You're so repellant, nothing you write is rooted in any sort of genuine empathy for other human beings just ego. Empty

https://41.media.tumblr.com/0ab606aad700002f18b6d8c90243deba/tumblr_o330iyQXpP1v61c3io1_500.jpg

what a bitch

ums, I have plenty of empathy, but no, not for you. Not anymore.

I also don't consider white racists a particularly good signpost for how much empathy one has.

Oh you never did you bullshit artist

i have no skin in this beef but uhhhh ums is one of the nicest dudes to engage w/ on ILX and also one of the funniest so perhaps if you're pickin' a fight w/ him where he reacts this angrily you might want to examine yr role in it?

idk

xxxpost

btw I did lol at the AZ post upthread

The most hilarious thing ums has written was some nonsense about him flagging a post for the first time. He has said that I've defended nazi imagery, was worse than trump, is 'repellent', and devoid of empathy. Yeah, really fucking nice.

tempted to start a mattress-style 'does *anyone* want frederik on this thread' poll

xpost sure seems like you "don't care what he thinks"

xxp

you've gotta be a gabbneb sock or something

either way I sincerely hope u get temp banned soon

xxpost yeah dude when you cherrypick 'nasty' posts a dude has made and the only overarching thing they have in common = that they're about you specifically I would say maybe that should tell you something.

I like having varying viewpoints but this thread is at its worst when it veers into the armchair ethnic studies/sociology courtesy of frederik and gabbneb

Alfred this is what happens when you shut down the stats talk bro

This is his very first response to me:

'Lmao Frederick you were the Ice Age nazi imagery apologist iirc don't make me pull your card

Number 2 GEE I WONDER WHY it might be easier to achieve socialism in a very small, racially homogeneous country than the US, given your extensive knowledge of history what do you think?

― robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), 7. marts 2016 14:38 (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink'

Just ridiculous poorly informed generalizations about various subgroups, its gross

Xxp

look i see you guys are pretty angry here but frederik spelled out exactly what i was trying to say re: voters not agreeing that sanders' record is better:

She is way more popular among democratic voters than he is. And especially among minorities, and especially among black voters. Protesting that really, both candidates seem clueless about race is stupid (and perhaps almost offensive), because, y'know, a couple of 'races' are sending a pretty strong signal that one of the candidates gets it better than the other, y'know? Try listening to them.

Xpist

If that's trolling fine but I actually engaged quite sincerely about exactly why your posts bother me and you completely ignored it as you tend to do to posts that don't suit your purpose, which generally is enlightening everyone with your considerable knowledge.

You just asked me not to use the word 'us'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q

fwiw, not that anyone asked my two cents: frederik or his tone have often bugged me in these threads (though i have enjoyed his posts elsewhere)... but i must have missed where he stepped it up into some super-troll territory to be getting these reactions. it seems to have really boiled over in the last day or two and it's very possible i was kinda skimming when whatever it was that went down, went down... but maybe it would be good for all involved to let it rest for a minute or something, idk.

tbh everyone should probably just take 5 minutes and listen to that awesome MJ song, we'll all feel better afterward

Voted today, they gave me two "I Voted" stickers and told me I could probably come back Tuesday for free coffee or a donut. If Sanders had promised free coffee and donuts for everyone he'd be way out ahead by now.

I have no problem feeling empathy, especially towards white people (it's something I'm looking at adjusting). But the constant admissions in the media that we should remember to feel sympathy for the white losers propelling Trumps campaign feels quite problematic to me, frankly. It's an idea that they deserve something they've never extended to anyone but themselves. It's kinda asking for white males to get better treatment than anyone else.

Question: if the GOP et al took a few months to really hate Obama, how will they treat Clinton, who they have hated for decades? Or will they recognize her at heart as one of them (conservative, career politician, etc)?

it's not gonna be much prettier - we still have Benghazi, email-gate, and the fact that she's a woman.

once they're relieved that Frump isn't emperor it'll be open-season, even before inaguration

meanwhile, on the GOP side

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/03/donald-trump-lobbyists-congress-220424

The message is becoming louder among the big-money set: It’s time to forget about the presidency and focus on retaining the majorities on Capitol Hill.

shit, was hoping they forgot about that

Wow. Ramos asked lame FOX-type questions.

A friend just explained Trump's enduring popularity as essentially the last candidate that is not Latino, female or Jewish. 2016: The Future!

OT, gratuitous "degrees of separation" comment: my wife is friends with Jorge Ramos's brother!

I have no problem feeling empathy, especially towards white people

ok LOL

i think clinton would know what to expect from the republicans due to having worked with them in the senate plus of course many years of the vast rightwing conspiracy. it seemed that obama & his team really were idealistic enough to think they could negotiate with them and work in a bipartisan way, at the start. one of the flipsides of this is that unfortunately clinton & people seem to always err on the side of being too secretive due to years of the vast rightwing conspiracy

heh.. hillary just went after trump.. i think she's used this construction a lot before - point out a whole lot of negative things about the opponent & wrap it up with "and you can draw your own conclusion"

excellent

should just say "Trump?", then fart into the mic. get on his level.

sorry to re-dredge this when everyone just moved on but i don't really understand what amerika is supposed to glean from frederik's reminders that the democratic party underwent schism in the 60s. we do know about that. this idea -- i may have misinterpreted this? -- that progressive policies themselves have somehow been fundamentally tainted by fdr's racist coalition-building doesn't seem to jive with the (accurate) idea that lbj-era northern democrats attempted to extend these policies to blacks and lost the south for it. do you think that sanders is some pre-lbj throwback, planning to freeze blacks out of jobs in his resurrected wpa? or that great society ambitions are foolish and worthless because racism still exists? what do you think might have happened in america had lbj not been beholden to bullshit about vietnam -- would everything have fallen apart in just the same way? (ironically, probably the best advice lbj ever got on vietnam -- irrelevant to our interests, impossible to win, our enemies are fighting for their country and will never stop, i watched them drop millions and millions and millions of pounds of bombs in korea and it was worthless, get out completely, get out now -- came from richard russell. sigh.)

hillary's larger share of the black vote is totally understandable considering we are talking here about people whose fear under a republican president, let alone a trumpian one, is of a higher probability of being murdered or seeing their children murdered instead of having to "move to canada", white liberals' perennial nightmare/fantasy. for this reason i'm not gonna tell a black person they're making a mistake by electing not to put their chips, their life, on "political revolution". (i am informed people are doing just this, on facebook, and here i have to swallow what i guess is probably somehow or other a privileged scream of GET OFF OF FACEBOOK, but okay, fair enough. condemn that.) but this doesn't mean that the political legacy sanders belongs to is inherently racist, or that it's moribund and should be sneered at and abandoned. it was abandoned, and that's why we're here. we know america is racist. we know its racism crippled the democratic party for decades. we knew it while it was happening. what do you think we should do? deport the racists? kill the racists? give up and resign ourselves to racist policy? give up and resign ourselves to plutocracy because some of the plutocrats don't actively want to destroy black people except in really extenuating circumstances, like if newt gingrich makes them uncomfortable? where is all this caustic knowingness leading?

i see you guys are pretty angry here but frederik spelled out exactly what i was trying to say

that's fair. it's a pretty anti-hillary, or at least pro-bernie crowd here. dude's individual statements may or may not have merit, but setting himself up as 'belligerent guy who lived here for a year and knows far better than everyone else' is gabbnebery off-putting

xp also dlh otm

great post dlh

it's not like there is a definitive subset of the american public that is "the racists" and meanwhile everybody else especially ourselves and our friends are a-ok and never racist

I had similar thoughts a few minutes ago watching the Univision debate. I don't doubt Clinton was sincere in her 2007 support for legalizing some kinds of illegal immigration, so squabbling about who said what a decade ago looks petty. It reminds me of GOP smearing of Hugo Black because he joined the Ku Klux Klan as a young pol on the make yet whose Supreme Court career represents a rebuke to Klannery and prejudice (Robert Byrd can fuck himself though).

All recent posts from daria dlh alfred otm

Earlier today, I posted/wondered how Clinton would react to the Michigan loss--didn't know there was a debate. Watching tonight, she does seem to be getting much better advice than in 2008.

Jorge Ramos disclosed his conflict of interest (his daughter works for Clinton's campaign), then seemed to overcompensate with a question about dropping out if indicted. Unless it was meant to be one she could easily swat aside, which she did. He probably shouldn't be on the panel either way.

this is a pretty good debate

dlh consistently one of the best posters