Il Douché and His Discontents: The 2016 Primary Voting Thread, Part 4

mordy otm

Oh for god's sakes, could it just be that Bernie didn't have a broad appeal to begin with? or that his campaign failed to deliver on numerous points? I dislike HRC as much as the other guy, and I'm typing this from the warmth of a country with rather responsible banks and single payer health care, I know what he stands for is good. But if Bernie really wants to create the very much needed movement/political revolution, his supporters and himself need to stop blaming this vague 'elitism'. There was a hole bunch of problems whit his campaigns: his numbers didn't work, he couldn't get the southern vote, he never offered a precise vision of america's place in the world, and his political revolution rhetoric rang bizarre after Obama's hope campaign pretty much crashed on congress's reality. I was really quite excited about him for a while, his presence was much welcomed, and yes somehow I would still prefer him over HRC. However, the whole narrative of him being the underdog AND the victim is just too easy, too easy. This is about becoming the president, it is not about not wanting other people to become presidents. I feel like he should be above that.

― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, March 16, 2016 12:09 AM (1 minute ago)

he is "above that" in that whatever position you're somehow imputing to him you've probably gotten from a supporter on social media

now, can we get a moratorium on berniesplainers from europe, FFS?

he never offered a precise vision of america's place in the world

How about simply a country among others for once.

like it or not the role the US plays as a defensive umbrella for countries for throughout the world has a great deal to do w/ the ongoing relative geopolitical stability. i don't think "simply a country among others" cuts it.

Change on the scale Bernie's touting doesn't happen from the top down. It's a complete reorientation of the American political identity. For that, you need "socialists" in city and state governments. You need more than just him in congress. If you put him in the White House without a support system of any kind, socialism in America will be cooked for more generations than we'll be alive to count. It'll be "oh we tried that and it was a disaster!"

Bernie supporters don't want to put in the work and seem to have a weird view of how much one person can do (remember Obama? he actually had a congress that liked him for two years! Bernie probably wouldn't have that...ever).

i guess it's like a million media cycles ago now but trump's comments about shooting muslims with bullets dripped in pigs' blood -- you know, in order to desecrate their corpses in the eyes of islamic custom -- should disqualify him from the presidency

yes but this is a country that is already droning and oops-droning Muslims daily for 13 years now and the democratic candidate voted to kick that whole thing off.

bernie supporters clearly have a ton of energy and passion + the ironic thing is that down ticket races are both extraordinarily important to ppl's everyday real life and much easier to impact through the actions + outreach of a small group of activists than the potus race.

Unlike, say, Rubio, Sanders is not going anywhere, and now he has a much bigger, and much more mainstream, audience for his views, which in turn could inspire copycat candidates, or at least candidates not too chickenshit to embrace their leftist instincts. At the least, while he's going to lose the nomination, he's been very good for our democracy, and it's an important salve for the rise of Trump, knowing there is just as much passion in the opposite corner.

like it or not the role the US plays as a defensive umbrella for countries for throughout the world

And other countries have their own sets of problems. If there was a specific criticism of Sanders' foreign policy there, I didn't see it.

eg i feel like facebooking type initiatives could make a big difference on smaller margin seats xxp

Bernie supporters don't want to put in the work

You sure about this?

remember Obama? he actually had a congress that liked him for two years! Bernie probably wouldn't have that...ever

lol i don't remember that i do remember them yelling "you lie!" to Obama, interrupting a presidential address.

a defeated GOP is going to give Hillary even less than any of them. pretty sure they will double down on local and national dirty tricks in response to a Hillary presidency as well.

mordy's FP beliefs are well-known, tim

mordy otm about smaller/downticket races btw. we shall see

Bernie supporters don't want to put in the work

You sure about this?

I don't see a lot of Bernie supporters rallying other people to vote in local and state elections. Just Bernie or bust.

i guess it's like a million media cycles ago now but trump's comments about shooting muslims with bullets dripped in pigs' blood -- you know, in order to desecrate their corpses in the eyes of islamic custom -- should disqualify him from the presidency. he often says we fight in a way that is too "politically correct," like we should try to humiliate our opponents or cause gratuitous harm to them instead of just aiming to defeat them. trump is a piece of shit and as little as i thought of the republican party the fact that every republican politician isn't vigorously denouncing him right now just blows my fucking mind

― Treeship, Tuesday, March 15, 2016 11:03 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this.

all the republican hemming and hawing is meaningless until they say, tout court, that he is not qualified and they won't vote for him. as long as they hedge their bets, they are enabling his rise.

Bernie supporters don't want to put in the work

You sure about this?

seriously, 90% of my wall = Bernie supporters and every one of them voted today, some volunteered, all of them frequently cascading the 'get out the vote' message.

a candidate with the word "socialist" affixed to him always starts with a handicap, so the fact that he's as far as he is, is pretty impressive in itself.

mordy's FP beliefs are well-known

I was referring to VHS' assertion that Sanders "never offered a precise vision of america's place in the world."

I don't see a lot of Bernie supporters rallying other people to vote in local and state elections. Just Bernie or bust.

― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Wednesday, March 16, 2016 12:24 AM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

are u serious? u don't think the people voting for Bernie support local and state issues? what about the massive local state successes for gay marriage and medical marijuana?

Bernie supporters don't want to put in the work

You sure about this?

I don't see a lot of Bernie supporters rallying other people to vote in local and state elections. Just Bernie or bust.

― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Wednesday, March 16, 2016 12:24 AM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this seems like more of a general problem about political apathy, which i think is tied to people's general estrangement from their local communities, than something to do specifically with bernie supporters

Actually, I've noted a lot of Bernie supporters doing some rallying, albeit independent of the Sanders campaign itself, which, like Clinton, and Trump, and every single one of these assholes, really hasn't even bothered mucking around at races outside their immediate bubble, as far as I can tell.

xpost Chicago's notorious state attorney losing her job in dramatic fashion was in essence one such down ticket race, not totally unrelated to a groundswell of progressive politics. Locally, I would not be shocked if Duckworth could later take out Kirk for similar reasons. The guys at the top - here, Rahm, or Rauner - may be firmly enmeshed, but the voters seem pretty inclined and mobilized to undermine them at the voting booth the best they can. Let's hope the momentum carries forward.

note that not every county in states had local/state issues to vote on in their Primary. my county didn't. the Dem nominee was the only thing on the ballot.

I don't see a lot of Bernie supporters rallying other people to vote in local and state elections. Just Bernie or bust.

maybe bc there's not enough progressive names to get excited over (god almighty we've had enough trouble itt coming up with less than half a dozen down ticket, Sanders-style candidates...)

FWIW, Chicago broke its past early voter turnout record, and I've seen the general primary voter turnout in Illinois described as "historic." Like, at least twice that of 2012, maybe more.

If you guys have seen that happening with Berners, then that's awesome. Most of the ones I know are of the bandwagon variety.

again, are we ignoring the massive recent state and local successes by the left in passing gay marriage and medical marijuana? those people are totally different from Bernie supporters? cos i don't see that.

all lazy bandwagoners too?

xp to Van Horn: "this vague elitism" is the massively well-documented and researched shift in Democratic party politics since the Reagan years, including a gradual turn away from the economic issues of the poor and working class and toward a milder version of conservative free market ideology coupled with liberalism on social issues. My post really has very little to do with whether Sanders is a "victim," but whether populist economic politics can actually get a fair hearing on the Democratic side of the aisle anymore.

Yeah I would love if Bernie's apparatus would keep rolling through fall supporting a bunch of GOTV and downticket support for progressive/socialist candidates.

Likewise.

How many Hillary supporters are actively involved in politics beyond supporting Hillary? It'd be nice if they'd channel some of that tepid enthusiasm into pushing people to settle downticket.

adam, surely hillary voters also support both those issues? idk, maybe not weed

i do remain optimistic about four years of socialish organizing under a non-white-nationalist president

xpost I wonder if Sanders would be on board with that. It'd be pretty magnanimous to loose his people and funds in support of Clinton. I bet he could find a way to do it without necessarily supporter her, couching it simply as a GOTV campaign and not an extension of the Clinton campaign.

a candidate with the word "socialist" affixed to him always starts with a handicap, so the fact that he's as far as he is, is pretty impressive in itself.

this is where I end up, at the end of each of these Tuesdays. I've been living under a neoliberal regime pretty much my whole politically sentient life (except, notably, for three years under Allende). Just hearing the word "socialist" uttered unapologetically on the Great American Stage is mind-boggling enough. It's not that I'm singing hallelujah over it, but neither am I going to become disillusioned because a shaggy muppet from Burlington hasn't quite made the finish line in 2016.

all the republican hemming and hawing is meaningless until they say, tout court, that he is not qualified and they won't vote for him.

Too much of the Republican base these days is made up of Palinites and Trumpsters, so that strongly repudiating either of them spells electoral suicide for the party. The Republican establishment has painted itself into a corner and can't escape it without making a huge mess.

what ppl see in their facebook/twitter feeds isn't representative of anything but their own interests

xpost Seen a couple of think pieces posting that incessant anti-Obama hyperbole - he's socialist! he's a communist! - helped soften the blow a little bit and robbed the word of some of its menace.

I don't know who'll win the fight for the Republican party, but one faction will split off within the next 8-12 years and a third party will be born. How robust will it be? Who knows. But that's the point we've reached.

xp huh, interesting Josh. didn't know that

wow looks like hillary won missouri

yes by a few thousand votes

The Obama thing makes sense. "Oh, is this what socialism is? Seems to not be ruining my life on a personal level."*

(*Obama is by no means a socialist, but it's cool if a huge misconception really does soften the blow.)

pretty crazy how close mo ended up being

yes by a few thousand votes

― Mordy, Wednesday, March 16, 2016 12:42 AM (2 minutes ago

less than 1500 it looks like!

xp to Van Horn: "this vague elitism" is the massively well-documented and researched shift in Democratic party politics since the Reagan years, including a gradual turn away from the economic issues of the poor and working class and toward a milder version of conservative free market ideology coupled with liberalism on social issues. My post really has very little to do with whether Sanders is a "victim," but whether populist economic politics can actually get a fair hearing on the Democratic side of the aisle anymore.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Wednesday, March 16, 2016 12:30 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sorry, i kinda took your post for a whole of shit I have been hearing about Sanders/Clinton tonight, which is super unfair on my part. I do think his rise is welcomed and everyone itt otm that the Sanders supporter type hopefully will continue the fight. To answer your post I think this vision of the left has long departed the US, even the New Deal could only be created in a time of crisis. I think the very incremental nature of US politics (presidency only 2x4 years is pretty short, compared to many countries) make those mass populist economic politics almost impossible to fight for, even more so in a climate of hatred for all things government.

even the New Deal could only be created in a time of crisis

the wars created european socialism

guys keep it down with the New Deal talk, you're gonna wake up Fred B.

i think a more robust liberal platform could become viable after this november if enough voters become disgusted with the republican party

agree obv that the imagined paradise of some aristocratic tax exiles has some pretty entrenched right-wing features but then so did the old monarchies, the left has had to fight everywhere is all. xps

the left is not dependent on Bernie, it was there before him, it will be there after him, it is part of him. he is setting an incredible precedent with this run, though, even if he fails spectacularly. i think he has definitely demonstrated some new possibilities and in the future we will have more left-leaning candidates and for that i am thankful. he doesn't even have to win the presidency, he's already done the nation a massive service.

the left gets called young, foolish, lazy, and unrealistic, just as they always have. the same things they said about Occupy Wall Street, they are saying about Sanders supporters now. same old establishment song and dance.

Paul BegalaVerified account
‏@PaulBegala
Looks like @HillaryClinton winning city of Chicago by 10%. Big mistake for @SenSanders to attack @RahmEmanuel.

ah, wonderful