Il Douché and His Discontents: The 2016 Primary Voting Thread, Part 4

i don't really agree w/ any of top man's "you sanders supporters" post. most successful candidates run on a platform of challenging the status quo to at least some degree, and obama won in 2008 by promising the exact opposite of what you're talking about. voter turnout isn't low because ppl don't want stuff from their government -- weed out the tea partiers, and most americans want a lot of stuff from their government! i also think that the majority of ppl who don't vote are probably never going to vote, and the outcome of the election doesn't depend on them.

Well, yeah, but that makes his statement worse.
--Frederik B

Yeah why didn't Bernie save all the people.

Arguably the famine and the bread lines were both symptomatic of the same forced collectivization of agriculture. Breadlines are obviously preferable to starving to death but I wasn't trying to gotcha Bernie. I was more pointing out that most of the material the right wing will use to smear him haven't even shown up in the discourse yet (partially bc I think the right would prefer him to Hillary and are saving their material for later).

I legit can't tell if this is real Oliver or parody, and I say that as someone who generally likes him (though now I'm starting to reconsider).

lol, it's parody. i still tune in occasionally but once you start noticing his metaphor + short conversation with a fake person thing, it's incredibly annoying

The parody could have been more accurate if you had John yelling at Victoria a little longer. It ended too comfortably.

WATCH: John Oliver absolutely destroys Victoria in an epic rant that originally had something to do with the idea of holding leaders to a higher standard

yeah Oliver's one note schtick gets pretty grating

There's a big Bernie Sanders billboard in my neighborhood now. Such a waste of money and resources.

tbf, john oliver doesn't dig it either
http://www.vulture.com/2016/02/john-oliver-last-week-tonight-c-v-r.html

It’s a comedy show. We can’t really control how people receive it. Just like you can’t control the ludicrous packaging placed on the pieces the next day online, when people write things like “John Oliver takes a sword to the very heart of chicken farming.” “He throws a hand grenade at Congress.” That response never ceases to slightly depress me. “He takes a baseball bat and pounds to death the concept of chicken farming.” Wow, you just oversold what that piece was! It’s really annoying.

Trump's campaign surely never recovered from his insightful takedown!

(Though to be honest, I found his breakdown of the costs and logistics of the border wall refreshing... why won't people press Trump further to go into any detail about how his plans will actually work?)

bc the wall is just a metaphor

The wall is you and me, and we're fabulous.

that reminds me that i was having a bad dream last night where sea levels were overtaking miami and other major cities but we had a giant 40 foot wall between the u.s. and mexico

kinda lovin this photo

https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2016/04/04/National-Politics/Images/BotsfordTRUMP160403WI43141459736411.jpg

that reminds me that i was having a bad dream last night where sea levels were overtaking miami and other major cities but we had a giant 40 foot wall between the u.s. and mexico

― Karl Malone, Monday, April 4, 2016 3:49 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sounds like a good dream to me #TRUMP2016

this exists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bERtaqXtBpI

If Trump is the most fit person ever, says his GI specialist or derm or whomever, imagine how hard police and soldiers have it with their bulletproof vests.

not the most fit person ever, just "the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency."

so, you know, not completely exaggerated or anything

i miss those silly early days of his campaign was the insane aspects of his candidacy were related to things like his personal doctor saying idiotic shit rather than barely veiled threats against adherents of particular religions

i dunno the latter has been the coin of his candidacy from nearly day one. wasn't the "temporary shut down of all muslims enterting the US" pretty early in the campaign?

There's a big Bernie Sanders billboard in my neighborhood now. Such a waste of money and resources.

― Οὖτις, Monday, April 4, 2016 3:42 PM (54 minutes ago)

because your neighborhood is likely to vote for him already?

p much. also he isn't going to win California or the primary so maybe he should spend that money on better shit.

I never saw an Obama billboard in SF in '08 fwiw

xpost
yeah, guess you're right - he did his "They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people." thing during the announcement of his candidacy on June 16

the muslims thing was months later though, after the San Bernardino shooting

ARG poll comes out showing Trump up 10 in Wisconsin. fans go nuts, ignoring how terrible ARG's track record has been

p much. also he isn't going to win California or the primary so maybe he should spend that money on better shit.

― Οὖτις, Monday, April 4, 2016 5:20 PM (11 minutes ago)

oh i forgot you were doing the bernie-should-drop-out thing, carry on

That's... A pretty bad excuse... I don't think he's talking about Ethiopia or whereever.

Well, what "other countries" was he talking about?

The NY Mag article caek quoted above (about Trump's exhaustion) is pretty good, if you need a look under the hood.

It was also thanks to some information he had gathered that Trump was able to do something that no other Republican has done before: take on Fox News. An odd bit of coincidence had given him a card to play against Fox founder Roger Ailes. In 2014, I published a biography of Ailes, which upset the famously paranoid executive. Several months before it landed in stores, Ailes fired his longtime PR adviser Brian Lewis, accusing him of being a source. During Lewis’s severance negotiations, Lewis hired Judd Burstein, a powerhouse litigator, and claimed he had “bombs” that would destroy Ailes and Fox News. That’s when Trump got involved.

“When Roger was having problems, he didn’t call 97 people, he called me,” Trump said. Burstein, it turned out, had worked for Trump briefly in the ’90s, and Ailes asked Trump to mediate. Trump ran the negotiations out of his office at Trump Tower. “Roger had lawyers, very expensive lawyers, and they couldn’t do anything. I solved the problem.” Fox paid Lewis millions to go away quietly, and Trump, I’m told, learned everything Lewis had planned to leak. If Ailes ever truly went to war against Trump, Trump would have the arsenal to launch a retaliatory strike.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/inside-the-donald-trump-presidential-campaign.html#

Bernie staying in past this point, I just don't know what to attribute it to. He's already earned himself a seat at the table for the convention, and he's pushed Hillary's rhetoric to the left and (at least on the Dem side) brought his signature issues into the mainstream of the party. But there's no way he's going to get the nomination now, staying in at this point seems like an exercise in willful contrarianism, egomania, etc. And at this point when it looks like Dem congressional chances are better than previously thought possible, it's weird/sad to see all this money and energy from his supporters being channeled into a pointless charade rather than something actually productive.

(just started Barney Frank's "A Life in Politics", maybe some of his cantankerous pragmatism is rubbing off on me today)

xp

That's... A pretty bad excuse... I don't think he's talking about Ethiopia or whereever.
Well, what "other countries" was he talking about?

― Hi! I'm twice-coloured! (Sund4r), 4. april 2016 23:37 (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Well, it's probably not a third-world country, since that would indirectly indict the second world for falling way far behind. And it's obviously not a second-world country. So go figure.

Hm, many Communist countries were Third World countries previously. I had interpreted the comment as saying that, under socialism, there was at least this basic improvement. (Indian Communists made arguments like this all the time.) If he was comparing Communist countries favourably to wealthy First World countries, then I agree that it's pretty ridiculous.

But there's no way he's going to get the nomination now, staying in at this point seems like an exercise in willful contrarianism, egomania, etc.

You're right - it's important for the party to know how many people in New Hampshire and Washington support a more progressive approach to the party, but totally unimportant to suss this out for New York and California. Really, Bernie had made his point after he cracked 20% in national polling - everything since then has been a total waste of everybody's time. And if you really think about it, running at all in the first place was willfully contrarian and egomaniacal, since Hillary was always going to win. For shame.

i really don't think it's a question of egomania

idgi Doc, you think Bernie's running a demographics study?

And if he was, then what to make of his campaign admitting they gave up on the south, to get more 'wins' on super tuesday?

i really don't think it's a question of egomania

I was hesitant to make this accusation, but Bernie really seems to enjoy his newfound cult of personality - much moreso than he, say, wants to support other candidates or build networks of like-minded candidates or actually get legislation passed. I tend to judge these kinds of misalignments of priorities in public figures p harshly.

we've already discussed this a bunch but it bears repeating that it's odd for a candidate to call for a revolution and then not actually show any interest in the organizing required to accomplish that revolution

I have more respect for Dean, who successfully pivoted from his failed primary bid and capitalized on his support within the party to reshape the party's strategy and actually win elections - which had a direct impact on getting Obama his Dem majority, and resulted in decent legislation.

idgi Doc, you think Bernie's running a demographics study?

I think, as I've said many many times, that his campaign is about proving a point: that there is an audience for progressivism and a platform based fundamentally on the issues of income inequality, political reform, and all the rest of it. "Moving Hillary to the left" is not the project and never has been since we all know how that'll end; the value of it is in revealing the base's progressive leanings to those who might run for other races, not to mention ginning up a lot of enthusiasm among people as the Bernie tour visits your state, gets you pumped, gives you the experience of voting for a socialist as something not totally alien, something you've now done and might do again. (Now I'm really really repeating myself, but: I think this matters! Especially for first-time voters! Wouldn't the range of political possibilities look different to you, maybe for the rest of your life, if your first choice is between center-right Democrat and 'democratic socialist,' with both actually doing pretty darn good in the race?)

Him bailing on the race because it's profoundly unlikely (to the point of impossibility) that he'll actually win is silly: that was true from the moment he started! Him winning has only gotten more likely (as in, going from a .001 chance to a .005 or something), but anyway if he quits, that means tons and tons of people don't get to pull the lever for the candidate they support and don't get to go through with this whole thing. I wonder what's really at stake in urging him out of the race. Why's it so important to deny him those votes and those delegates, or the full referendum on his ideas? I want the history books to get it right and I want him to compete right to the end.

Yeah, good point - I, too, am really disappointed that Future Bernie Sanders has not done any of that organizing stuff. I mean it's already mid 2019 where he is. Pretty disappointing that he's just been sitting on his hands since losing the nomination - I thought he was made of better stuff than that.

It's just, like - - - I see so many of these "advice to Bernie Sanders: if you really want to succeed, what you should do is quit! Trust me, I know about success - I've been supporting Clinton since day one!" kinda pieces and opinions floating around and it's such weak concern-trolling.

i seem to remember shakey having some pretty harsh words for the blue dogs the dean/rahm DNCC whipped up during those first couple of obama years -- the ones who got wiped out in the midterms and gave the GOP their huge majorities, btw

the base's progressive leanings to those who might run for other races

this is an admirable goal, but it's only the smallest of first steps in actually getting those people into office. Once the demand is there, then you have to identify which races are in play, find candidates to run in those races, give them money and party backing to fight what is likely to be hard-fought campaign (in the case of primary challenges, or swing seats), then you have to make sure those voters who were excited by Bernie know about this other person and actually show up to vote when Bernie is *not* on the ballot. That is all a shitload of work that requires coordination and exploitation of the party apparatus and Bernie has p clearly demonstrated by this point that he is *not* interested in doing it. He hasn't supported downballot candidates who claim his mantle, his campaign isn't coordinating with them, it isn't helping them raise money, etc. And at this point we have less than 7 months to go! Or do you think Berniemania is going to somehow sustain itself into the 2018 midterms cuz if so I have some unpleasant news for you...

xp

Can't wait for Οὖτι to blame Sanders for Clinton's centrist policies in a year. He'll have gotten a lot of practice by then.

i seem to remember shakey having some pretty harsh words for the blue dogs the dean/rahm DNCC whipped up during those first couple of obama years

true, and a lot of those individual members sucked and what I didn't like about them was when they didn't toe the party line. otoh (most of them) helped get ARRA and Obamacare passed.

Can't wait for Οὖτι to blame Sanders for Clinton's centrist policies in a year. He'll have gotten a lot of practice by then.

Unless Clinton gets a majority in congress it's barely going to matter what any of her policies are

that there is an audience for progressivism and a platform based fundamentally on the issues of income inequality, political reform, and all the rest of it

also hasn't this goal already been accomplished? it sure seems like it to me. what's the point of staying in all the way up to the convention, just burning up all that donor money?

Can't wait for Οὖτι to blame Sanders for Clinton's centrist policies in a year.

hey maybe if Bernie had a bloc of votes in Congress they could pressure President Hillary from the left, wouldn't that be nice? eh too much work...

so much more fun to continue this silly purist liberal savior grandpa routine

This is a lot of responsibility to be laying on one guy's head tbh! Why are all of those things his job? Why does it all have to happen this one election cycle? And your whole list starts with "once the demand is there..." and yet you want Bernie to quit before he finishes confirming this. It's strange. We're talking about putting the brakes on, and hopefully reversing, the general tendency this entire party has had for more than two decades. Sanders's campaign can do a lot and I'm really glad it's happening; I acknowledge it can't do everything, but why does that then mean "well then he may as well just pack it in"? I don't necessarily think "Berniemania" will sustain itself until the 2018 midterms but I don't think the interest in progressive policies to address income inequality is just this year's fad.

The only development that would actually seriously shock me is if, in 2018, Bernie is not all over the fucking place making speeches with Candidate X in cities where Bernie did well this year, working the crowd, doing some of his 'greatest hits' and speaking about how excited he is that Young People like Candidate X here are the real future of the Political Revolution In This Country. I mean, that shit writes itself.

Also in case my labored joke about transmissions from Future Bernie Sanders wasn't clear: Howard Dean was not elected DNC chair until February 2005, so holding whatever he accomplished in that post over what Sanders should supposedly be doing right this second is, uh, odd.

what's the point of staying in all the way up to the convention,

I already answered this, but the point of staying in until the convention is that people in New York and California and a bunch of other places have not fucking voted yet, thank you, and we would like our voices to also be registered in this grand tallying-up of opinion, thank you very much for your concern.