Il Douché and His Discontents: The 2016 Primary Voting Thread, Part 4

why did he even talk to the daily news? that newspaper is like one step above the post which is one step below the gutter.

isn't it just as likely that people will disengage/become cynical when he inevitably loses?

some people definitely will, just like almost everyone disengages when it's time for midterms. but, again, how would those same people react if he quit right now, at the end of a series of strong primary victories, when he still had a legitimate chance to win?

The Daily News slammed Clinton a couple days ago for the perceived min wage opportunism, and I think also hit her on caginess around a debate, but I do get the sense that they're ultimately more anti-Sanders than anti-Clinton. And I'd be surprised if they weren't.

what is the trick to getting the left to vote during midterms? they claim to be angry + that things are dire + that radical change is needed. how does that become "oops was yesterday election day?"

The Daily News is an institution in NYC whether good or not, and at least it's Dem-leaning, unlike the Post. Although such things are increasingly becoming dinosaurs, it's one of the two papers that "ordinary New Yorkers" have read for years.

xpost because the candidates on offer are basically moderate republicans?

also, let's dispel with this fiction that his loss is inevitable. in terms of delegates, it's unlikely, but not impossible, and he certainly has the momentum. putting all that aside, it seems foolish to categorize anything as "inevitable" this year. remember a few months ago when anyone that talked about the possibility of a contested convention was tossed aside like a fool because it was impossible that GOP would let things reach that point?

what is the trick to getting the left to vote during midterms? they claim to be angry + that things are dire + that radical change is needed. how does that become "oops was yesterday election day?"

― Mordy, Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:03 PM (43 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is the $10k question. How did the tea party do it? I remember reading that, contrary to popular stereotype, its supporters tend to be affluent and educated. That's probably the base for people who are most likely to be politically active. I guess you need a way to make involvement engaging, social, exciting, etc., like dressing up in revolutionary era garb and yelling is for right-wing dorks. Do that and channel it into midterm voting somehow (???).

You don't actually need a huge number of people to get involved, relatively speaking, because turnout is so low.

treesh the daily news is a staple of new york life, like the post. yes it's a tabloid but it's fairly high qual as tabs go (and it's not owned by rupert murdoch)

i know no one likes to talk about hillary's email thing, but if the FBI has 147 a few dozen people working on it and they intend to do whatever they do before the convention, there's at least a chance that she has to deal with a ton of bad publicity in the final weeks of the primary season. i don't know how much something like that would affect the race, but it definitely doesn't help her

let's dispel with this fiction

let's dispel this malapropism shall we

let's dispel with dis dick

what is the trick to getting the left to vote during midterms?

As I always ask, what left?

dude everything you post is dumb

this revved up left that's voting for Bernie, obviously

xp

i know no one likes to talk about hillary's email thing, but if the FBI has 147 a few dozen people working on it and they intend to do whatever they do before the convention, there's at least a chance that she has to deal with a ton of bad publicity in the final weeks of the primary season. i don't know how much something like that would affect the race, but it definitely doesn't help her

― Karl Malone, Wednesday, April 6, 2016 2:07 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk i haven't been keeping up w/ it a ton but the email thing seems like such a non-scandal, nobody really gives a shit except for right-wingers and some really hardcore bernie fans, though i guess the reaction would change a little if clinton is actually indicted, which seems like a longshot though

M, i think you're stupid too. let's move on.

please just think 10 seconds before you post something and ask yourself "is this a really dumb comment that adds nothing to the conversation"?

like we're in the midst of a bernie campaign where you apparently believe he has a more than non-zero chance of winning and you even cited a greenwald post to demonstrate all his momentum and how the narrative that he can't win is bogus -- and then you ask "what left." like what the fuck are you even talking about?

don't bother Mordy

er don't bother, Mordy

Say, now, wasn't there talk of starting a Part 5 thread, now that this one is well past 7500 posts? With Wisconsin results the season is entering a new phase of Trump slippage and Sanders fighting for leverage in NY, PENN and NJ. Seems like a good moment to start anew.

it would be cool if the new thread had a title that didn't result in the word Douché at the top of my phone as i catch up on this thread on crowded trains

like what the fuck are you even talking about?

i'm talking about our "left" party that is going to ask these disaffected Bernie supporters to turn out to reward two years of a Schmuck Schumer-led Senate in '18.

Also Trumps' scalp flashing on screen for a second as the thread loads (for me). Cue next thread's 2nd post being a close up of his word hole...

xp

newsflash: the democratic party is a coalition party, not an ideological one. if you don't like who they run, get involved and promote your cause. otherwise someone else will and you won't like it. not that i think you will - the extent of your political participation appears to be half-assed self-aggrandizing comments on an internet message board. xp

it would be cool if the new thread had a title that didn't result in the word Douché at the top of my phone as i catch up on this thread on crowded trains

― Karl Malone, Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:33 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Bern After Reading

Mor vs. Mor 7500 posts long

you even cited a greenwald post to demonstrate all his momentum and how the narrative that he can't win is bogus

Tbf that wasn't the point of the Greenwald citation (as I read it anyway) - Morbs explicitly was backing up KM, who was making what I thought was a pretty fair assessment of the value of Sanders staying in the race against the no-doubt totally sincere and well-intentioned advice from Clinton die-hards that he leave the race for the good of the progressive causes that their candidate does not champion:

he's helping to inspire a lot of young people to get involved in local/state elections. no, not many - most will just vote in the primary or in november, and then completely forget about everything until 2020, again. but some people nonetheless will get inspired and become active that would not have been otherwise. for example, most people here have known all about single payer healthcare for decades or more, but you should remember that there are tons of college kids who were either too young or too politically disengaged to really pay attention to that short-lived debate during its most recent turn in the spotlight in 2009/2010. so having a democratic socialist in the news everyday to popularize these ideas (and trounce hillary in some states, on top of that) is inherently valuable to the future of progressive politics.

in which context the list of recent trouncings really doesn't seem like it's being offered as proof that sanders can win the nomination. i dunno.

as to the midterms point i think morbs is being typically cantankerous but basically otm against the notion that there's some big disappointing mystery about progressives' failure to show the same love to tepid centrists in midterms (which they tend to spend running away from anything really exciting going on, see so many dems after obamacare passed!) that they do to a big bold socialist yelling himself hoarse about income inequality and taxing the rich to pay for social services. there are certainly arguments offered, often, why they "should" get out and vote for those people anyway, and i'm sympathetic to some of them, but if the question is why they're not inspired to do so, i do think morbs may offer a piece of the puzzle.

xpost to marcos

yeah, what i'm talking about is the indictment side of it, and the affect it would have on the democratic primaries. i have no idea if an indictment is likely or not. it seems pretty clear that she knowingly set up a private server and unwittingly exposed classified material for at least a month because they didn't think to encrypt it properly. i don't think it was nefarious, it's just part and parcel with the disregard and lack of understanding of information security that's common throughout the government. but i don't know how the FBI would react to it - i don't know if it amounts to something that she MUST be indicted for. and i don't know what kind of influence the obama administration would play in that decision. the whole reason i raised it is just that it's an example of something unexpected that could happen in the next month or two that would significantly impact the race, as another reason that bernie shouldn't quit until it actually IS impossible for him to win.

With Wisconsin results the season is entering a new phase of Trump slippage

Do not want to vicualize Trump slippage, thanks.

it would be cool if the new thread had a title that didn't result in the word Douché at the top of my phone as i catch up on this thread on crowded trains

― Karl Malone, Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:33 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Bern After Reading

― human life won't become a cat (man alive), Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:36 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

No takers? Ok how about "J'accuse Ted Cruz"

the notion that there's some big disappointing mystery about progressives' failure to show the same love to tepid centrists in midterms

i think you've misread the glenn greenwald comment but i don't feel like scrolling up to revisit it. i think this is dumb as hell tho. besides the fact that political participation is strategic and not a demonstration of personal values, the system is set up so that you can run and vote for whomever you want. if there's a real leftist movement in this country, let them find candidates they love and support them and change the system. the whining that the democratic party is not appealing enough is dumbshit nonsense.

this idea that leftists don't show up to vote at midterms because they aren't inspired enough is just lazy leftists letting themselves off the hook.

Doctor Casino and Morbs otm re: midterms.

Mordy, that discontent with the part that you call "whining" is exactly what has propelled the most successful leftish presdiential candidate in modern memory, whereas what you're advocating is essentially Clinton's line throughout her career.

Whether the system is really "set up so that you can run and vote for whomever you want" is a whole other ball of wax.

yeah, really otm. "i won't vote until the democratic party spontaneously starts running candidates i like more" is definitely the way to change politics. it's a good thing the republican side feels the same way otherwise i might be worried that they'll capture legislative bodies and governorships throughout the country. xp

my political participation ended with OWS as i have slowly going broke from illness to deal with, but thx M.

and it's all over btw, nothing to be done

i am a Beckettian.

and yes, the 'sexiness' of presidential races certainly factors into it. as must voter suppression efforts and the comparative ease of voting for the affluent etc. like, all the factors that obtain in every election which favor republicans, which we hashed out with some charts and stuff a little while back, apply in midterm elections but without the enthusiasm push that comes from the sense of a major event, a manichean choice of direction, a contest between a couple of symbolic individuals. yeah that stuff is dumb but it probably HELPS progressive turnout in the presidential years more than it can be said to hurt it in the non-presidential years.

people are meeting at bernie rallies, they're adding each other on facebook. a minority are volunteering, forming groups, canvassing neighborhoods, exhorting friends to come to events. some number of those are likely to continue in those efforts after this election. they will form other groups, start other campaigns - or when they hear about other campaigns, they will have many more people at their fingertips that they can try to draw to come along with them. this will obviously not be most of the subset of sanders supporters who got 'involved' in the first place, but it will not be zero and this will matter. but this too is a non-sexy, low-level kind of process. so basically, sanders-as-presidential-candidate is enabling the boring low-level stuff that some complain the focus on sanders-as-presidential-candidate somehow prevents or blocks. so now who's putting too much emphasis on the symbolism of the quadrennial contest versus the "day to day" stuff? "boy, i sure wish sanders would do more to help the diffusion of progressivism! like for example, he could stop appearing on TV or at giant rallies promoting progressivism! if only they'd put me in charge!"

for whoever said that people aren't energized by downticket races b/c moderates: there are plenty of genuine progressives in downticket races! in wisconsin there are a whole bunch!

except no one said he should stop appearing on TV or promoting progressivism so you're just arguing with yourself xp

political participation is strategic and not a demonstration of personal values

too bad average ordinary folk who vote tend not to think so. Most ppl who do have stopped voting.

what we need is a sexy bernie sanders

I'm already planning to capitalize on the excitement with my Feel the BERN Xtreme Skate, Punk, Circus Sideshow and Midterm Voter Registration Festival Tour

yes correct - Americans have the lowest participation numbers of iirc pretty much every other Western democracy? probably bc we're so exceptionally infatuated with individualism that americans believe "well my vote doesn't make the difference" is a good reason not to go to the polls. xxp

i think you've misread the glenn greenwald comment but i don't feel like scrolling up to revisit it.

here's the relevant posts again since yeah it was almost two hours ago. i have many differences with morbz but i don't think his posts need to be totally mischaracterized in order to disagree with him every time.

i think b) is better. but there's an assumption built into it, which is that keeping his campaign alive helps to build support for progressive ideas. by inspiring a lot of people who weren't previously engaged in politics or aren't satisfied with going with someone like hillary clinton for president, he's helping to inspire a lot of young people to get involved in local/state elections. no, not many - most will just vote in the primary or in november, and then completely forget about everything until 2020, again. but some people nonetheless will get inspired and become active that would not have been otherwise. for example, most people here have known all about single payer healthcare for decades or more, but you should remember that there are tons of college kids who were either too young or too politically disengaged to really pay attention to that short-lived debate during its most recent turn in the spotlight in 2009/2010. so having a democratic socialist in the news everyday to popularize these ideas (and trounce hillary in some states, on top of that) is inherently valuable to the future of progressive politics.

― Karl Malone, Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:09 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

KM otm

re trouncing (explain it's all a mirage, we've heard that-- the OPTICS are good)

‏@ggreenwald
Last 7 states:

ID- Sanders 78%
UT- Sanders 79.3%
AZ- HRC 56.5%
AK- Sanders 81.6%
HI- Sanders 68.8%
WA- Sanders 72.7%
WI- Sanders 56.5%

― we can be heroes just for about 3.6 seconds (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:17 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what we need is a sexy bernie sanders

oh yeah....

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1586639544/Screen_Shot_2011-10-13_at_11.43.30_AM_400x400.png

oooooh yeaaah

Karl, make us a new thread, plz. ty.