Come anticipate CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR with me

Haaaaa, I had not heard that about Perlmutter.

very much appreciated ant man revealing what he'd been trying with his suit

never liked iron man

i find it funny how casual science-inclined people tend to favour him and are slightly surprised to hear me hating on him

(probably just around me though)

I enjoy the movies but he's a jerk, that's his deal

shouldn't it be tory stank?

i guess i don't really like tony/IM either, but agree that he's not really supposed to be likable. more just entertaining. RDJ seems to be having such a good time in the part that it's hard not to get swept along.

However, Robert Downey Jr. asked for more screentime and a higher paycheck.

dude is already the world's highest-paid actor, he must be trying to put together his own moon colony or something.

I thought he looked a lot like Weird Science RDJ:
http://assets.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/robert-downey-jr-s-weird-science-of-acting-19880519/20130319-rdj-x624-1363720997.jpg

^^ bingo. kinda figured it was intentional

Marvel CEO Ike Perlmutter planned to have Iron Man written out of the film completely, in which case the Russos had backup plans to adapt another story in the event that happened

i hope it was capwolf

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RS6aELT1uKw/VFK9ymbrPSI/AAAAAAAA1BA/fUKYOC4OSUk/s1600/wolf4.PNG

I seem to remember them talking about doing something with the insane '50s Captain America right after Winter Soldier came out

Wat. I don't know which is more insane, the '50s Captain America manque or the idea of making a movie featuring that character. That's something you save for maybe like the nineteenth Captain America movie.

But I support Captain America IV: Capwolf.

Well I normally liveblog these things in comic strip form for the benefit of my brother, but tonight I am too tired and too drunk and too old and I tapped out after one scribbly attempt at an early scene:
http://i.imgur.com/21LtQKn.jpg
but yeah, this was entertaining, everyone involved is clearly having a lot of fun, even RDJ counting his monies...

Steve kissed a woman, I guess that means one of them will disappear for at least 50 years now

When Cap kissed the grandniece of his former flame and one of them said "that was...", I was sure the next word was going to be something entirely different.

dude is already the world's highest-paid actor, he must be trying to put together his own moon colony or something.

iirc he's said something in the past to the effect of his asking for more helps the rest of the cast get paid more too? idk I'm probably mis-remembering that.

those shiny brand new blank-ass baseball caps are way more conspicuous than the russos seem to think

Vision/Scarlet Witch mansion scenes were touching, that's what's really missing from this and Avengers 2. The action is fine, but without enough non-action setup it gets boring.

The whole thing hinged on worldwide anger at Avengers-related destruction, but they didn't spare a minute to debate that, like "we destroyed an entire city because the alternative was destroying the world, duh."

uh yeah but they created the dude who was destroying the city!!

Here was the other bit of older version mixed with Civil War trivia I was looking for, in terms of changing scripts:

Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely's original idea for Captain America 3 was a vastly different and much smaller film without the other Avengers, but Kevin Feige suggested they adapt Civil War instead. Certain parts of their original idea still made into the movie, such as the emphasis on Steve and Bucky's relationship, as well as the use of Baron Zemo as the villain.

uh yeah but they created the dude who was destroying the city!!

a city here, a city there

The whole thing hinged on worldwide anger at Avengers-related destruction, but they didn't spare a minute to debate that, like "we destroyed an entire city because the alternative was destroying the world, duh."

― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Monday, May 9, 2016 8:31 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

tbh this is really it for me. not this point in general but any point at all i guess. i was 'with' the movie until it suddenly ended and i realized they never really went anywhere with the central argument, didn't really develop it much at all let alone offer some sort of conclusion. it mostly felt like a plot point to get to the emotional character stuff. i liked the emotional character stuff -- the russos are so, so much better at it than whedon that it's embarrassing -- but, like, civil war. i wish they went somewhere with it. the ending really seems like it got committeed or something.

they also made pretty much no attempt to make iron man's side seem tenable, and then validated cap's side later on by making the government guy a jerky bureaucrat. everyone watching these movies knows the earth would be dead and shit without the avengers and also that government programs should never be trusted because sometimes they're secretly nazis. have to give a little more effort to make iron man not look completely irrational.

they left out the destruction in an African country (forget where) during the Ultron affair when the Hulk went crazy and Iron Man went full hulkbuster to take him down! for some reason that really bugged me, like things being destroyed in Africa only mattered when it was in this movie

The comic Civil War that used Hulk going apeshit on innocents makes a lot more sense, but I guess they didn't want to introduce that kind of gray area to any of the MCU heroes.

Hulk going apeshit as a pretext*

i was 'with' the movie until it suddenly ended and i realized they never really went anywhere with the central argument, didn't really develop it much at all let alone offer some sort of conclusion.

The Russo bros have stated that this was intentional, that they wanted the issue to remain unresolved within the universe of the movie and to some extent within the mind of the viewer. And it makes sense, as we're likely to see a new paradigm similar to the comics' post-Civil War Avengers (wherein there was an official, government-sponsored Avengers team and a rogue, off-the-grid team), and I'm sure some of the upcoming movies will deal with how the respective sides of the argument actually play out in terms of dealing with different threats.

sounds right. Doctor Strange will probably be its own thing, but definitely a good chance Captain Marvel, Black Panther and Ant-Man and the Wasp all play into this

uh yeah but they created the dude who was destroying the city!!

Not w/ New York or DC, tho
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Monday, May 9, 2016 8:39 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the point wasn't Ross saying that they didn't do the right thing in NY or DC (remember - he did acknowledge their heroics before he began criticizing them), but that there was civilian cost to some of their destruction in these melees.

and well, the Ultron fuckup was a pretty huge fuckup. and the deaths in Nigeria were probably avoidable (if they had perhaps not chosen to engage in the midst of a civilian population - maybe track em further down the road and strike when necessary).

anywho just saw this again - enjoyed it even more the second time around. not really sure what kind of 'conclusion' anybody was looking for. I would have hated it if they had some simple resolution after beating the shit out of each other for 2.5 hours. this somewhat leaves the future films in flux (who will retire, who is butthurt, etc).

also think there were plenty of dramatic moments in this.

have to give a little more effort to make iron man not look completely irrational.

err - because he agreed to government oversight of his team's initiatives? it isn't as if the accords were to *disband* the Avengers! weren't the Avengers part of the UN in later comics?

can't fathom how anybody wouldn't be (I apologize for this in advance) #teamironman after seeing this. Captain America's M.O. was purely emotional, resting on a few clumsy "what ifs" and his unyielding devotion to his childhood friend.

i mean he was pretty much the "regulation hurts more than it helps, maaaaaaan" guy

err - because he agreed to government oversight of his team's initiatives?

yes? in this universe they've created where every government goon ever is either an idiotic bureaucrat who doesn't ~understand~ superheroing (like literally the dude in this movie) or a secret nazi, yeah, they have to actually show how the accords would help anything. you could do a lot of generous work on #teamironman's behalf coming up with ways in which that would actually lead to fewer civilian deaths overall, but it's also not hard to imagine cap thinking it's just the first step in becoming a contracted super-soldier again. given the events of winter soldier why wouldn't he be paranoid? why wouldn't anyone watching be paranoid?

funny you mention steve acting emotionally when tony is spurred to do this because of a single emotional confrontation and girlfriend problems. it didn't come off to me like an actual good idea for the greater good, it came off as tony trying to pawn his guilt off onto an unfeeling government program.

i mean the movie literally had an evil goon disguised as a government goon purposely trying to turn bucky back into the winter soldier.

i don't know if they were a part of the UN in the comics because i don't read comics, i only have the movie universe to go by. and steve seemed done with the accords before bucky was even involved, they were well into this-is-now-100%-personal-suddenly territory there.

Excited to see the ramifications of ILX: Civil War

join my team for sexy hunks and paul rudd if you're into that

accords would have been worth it for a gyrich sighting

Paul Rudd made me glad I haven't seen Ant Man.

anywho just saw this again - enjoyed it even more the second time around.

Unlike Avengers 1 or GOTG, it was short on the funny to break up the punchy.

Like Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron, I immediately forgot the plot. Nonetheless, it was fun and mostly enjoyable. I really enjoyed the action sequences.

- Tony Stark's position is insane. A year ago in this universe SHIELD was destroyed by Hydra spies.
- Captain America has no discernible position. His name is Captain AMERICA. Why not reuse common American fears of the United Nations?
- Tony Stark is a sociopath. He confronts the costs of the Avengers and immediately asks a teenager to fight a group of superheroes.
- Vision, like Hulk and Thor, suffers from the problem of being too powerful. Ant-Man and Hawkeye are capable of fighting someone with an infinity stone?
- I guess Marvel introduced magic with Black Panther. I assumed they would introduce it with Doctor Strange and Iron Fist. In a world with magic, Scarlet Witch is an Inhuman?
- It's disappointing that the cinematic universe has become completely detached from the ABC and NetFlix universes.

It was never really connected. Jeph Loeb runs TV and I get the impression the MCU folks think he's and idiot

Right about Vision though. I assumed he was going to abstain from the fight and go meditate on a mountain or something

i get the vision/jarvis thing but must we really be stuck with ireland man

- Tony Stark's position is insane. A year ago in this universe SHIELD was destroyed by Hydra spies.

This is my main point of contention with his position. Who knows if Hydra (or another similar group, I guess, since they were supposedly just totally wiped out in Agents of SHIELD) has infiltrated any other organizations and is just salivating over the idea of having a team of powered individuals under their thumb to use as they see fit. And even if that isn't the case, I don't think it would take Tony long to realize that he was being used as just the sort of weapon he pointedly stopped manufacturing.

A lot of people here thought that was some sort of half-assed "localisation" effort when Age of Ultron came out. It's fucking terrible, yeah

xpost

It was never really connected. Jeph Loeb runs TV and I get the impression the MCU folks think he's and idiot

― Number None, Tuesday, May 10, 2016 7:39 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

They were initially very connected, at least in terms of the movies' impact on the shows. It is disheartening that there seems to be so little communication between the two camps at present, but there's nothing hugely contradictory between the movies and the tv shows at the moment, so I wouldn't think it'd be that hard to bring things back around. Tonight's SHIELD is supposed to follow on the events of Civil War so I guess we'll see how perfunctory that winds up being.

truly incredible michael j fox impression from english spider teen imo. like perfect

Finally saw this last night — the showing I tried last Thursday was sold out. I liked it fine. It was a bowl of my favorite cereal. Lots of marshmallow bits.

...I'm not sure why I'm not more enthused about it -- it got just about everything right. I think I'm just mad at myself for turning into my grandmother. ("Shhhh! My programs are coming on.")

i liked sad vision at the end playing sadly chess w himself. wld like a three-cam samily sitcom w he and SW

samily=family

It was largely S.H.I.E.L.D. that was compromised as well as their S.T.R.I.K.E. division and the Gary Standing senator. And S.H.I.E.L.D. is pretty much extinct now.

Besides...it was foreign government's insistence on oversight because civilian loss happened on *their* soil. 100+ governments signed cos they were tired of the Avengers (now pretty much rogue instead of overseen by S.H.I.E.L.D.) going into foreign land and causing civilian death. Considering their first foray overseas as a group was to squash a being they created, not so farfetched.

The U.N. didn't have significant compromise. An unaffiliated death gang dude stalked and murdered the real UN guy (not Hydra, just a rogue grieving civilian).

Captain doesn't even cite any fear of compromise in his reasoning. His reasoning was purely "what if they tell us to go somewhere we don't think we should go, or don't let us go where we should".

And...he is almost ready to sign *while Bucky is being interrogated*. He only backs out because he finds out Scarlet Witch is temporarily housebound.

The main catalyst in cementing his decision? A clumsy quote from his deceased ex-lover conveniently placed at a funeral (one of the more eye-rolly moments).

It's also worth noting that in the cinematic universe, Cappy has always reported to see, either in the US government, or S.H.I.E.L.D. (unlike Iron Man). This is really the first time he's been part of an unaffiliated team. Maybe he's still bitter about S.H.I.E.L.D. getting compromised but he never voices or implies that as a reason.