The new rolling ILX parenting thread, since the other one was getting unwieldy

I think we're talking around £35-50/child/day here in London for childcare. So if Pam were to return to work full-time and we could find somewhere that would take the two of them, she'd conceivably have to be earning £28k-35k just for us to be in the same financial position we're in now with her freelancing from home (and earning about £500/month). There are things like childcard voucher schemes from some employers (it's paid out of your pre-tax earnings so the employer gets an NI break too) and Child Tax Credits and so on, but the sums still don't add up for us.

So here's Ava in the garden to cheer us up:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1190/533883295_54038dfaf6.jpg

beautiful. i love brown tops on girls.

Let's assume your baby stops moving long enough to set this movement monitor thing off. By then *if* anything was wrong it'd be too late to do anything, right? Or does it literally measure something like heart rate and if it stops for 10 secs it goes off?

Sounds like just one more horrible paranoid product designed to make parents even more twitchy and scared, but what do I know.

it makes a single beep if the kid doesnt breathe for 10 seconds and starts the alarm after 20 seconds.

i dont know if id be too quick to pronounce my kid dead after 20 secs of not breathing.

i find it pretty comforting actually but, before we got it, i wasnt past the point of straining to hear her breathing at night. it does delay the inevitable jump to a "chances are real slim the baby will stop breathing and whatever happens happens" attitude, which is probably bad for the parents in the long run.

Ms Misery I was also worried about those statistics - but I get your point.
it's impossible to afford childcare and work unless you have a big social net to help you.
Hopefully, being at a progressive place, like a University, is more helpful than being in anything corporate.
UMASS has develop[ed a program for undergrads who want to get licensed It's pretty cool.
Anyone who works at UMASS can leave their kids at the day care ( also, students with kids)- very low cost, or free. The people working with the children are getting degrees in ECE, so they're committed.
It's a good model, I think.
Give potential teachers academic credits through doing what they want to do. Practicum. That's what it's called.

Every company should have a daycare - it could be run by one person and staffed by students who earn academic credits!
That's a very low cost business model!
It makes sense on so many levels - which is why it will never happen.

OK, back to the kiddlywinks!

We have a supposedly subsidised creche where I work. But it's still like £5000 a year I think :(

Mark we bought a monitor and it's been invaluable - Isabel suffers from occasional anxiety-related OCD anyway (exacerbated when she's tired, which she was all the time post-birth) and having a machine to basically "check" on him for her was so useful in the first couple of months (i.e. we got some rather than no sleep). It didn't increase the anxiety and paranoia at all because we've had no false alarm problems and because it's loud and we know it works.

There is an awful lot of tat marketed to parents, but all of it's useful to *someone*: you just need to realise what fits your specific needs.

We don't have a movement monitor, but do have a video monitor, which for the first few weeks I would lie in bed and stare at all night long (he sleeps in our room but when he's sound asleep you can barely hear him breathing). Now I have it on when he's gone to bed, but mainly so that I can tell when he's woken and needs resettling, or when he's just flailing around noisily in his sleep - otherwise I would have to keep running into the bedroom to check, and wake him up even more.

We're in London too and like you, Michael, the numbers probably won't add up for me to return to work any time soon (certainly not commuting into town). Hopefully I can get some freelance writing work (am in magazine publishing) although I have been considering a career change into something more compatible with family life, like a classroom assistant.

Still, you think childcare's expensive? My nan is about to go into a respite care home (she has dementia) and that's £500 a week. Sheesh!

We have a video monitor, too. I've used it more to see when the dog sneaks onto the couch than to watch the baby.

it's impossible to afford childcare and work unless you have a big social net to help you.

Not in the UK, it's not. It's not easy, granted, but it is far from impossible.

Also, Megan = surprisingly cute for someone who looks so like her Dad :-)

Ok, this may be a strange question but may I ask how old some of you were when you had your first? My husband and I defintely want to have kids but we're not anywhere near ready. I'm starting grad school in the fall and he's only just started working since relocating here from England. At this rate it'll be 3 or 4 (more likely) years before we're in a position to contemplate having a baby. I'll be 30 at the end of the year so this will make me around 34 when we start trying and I'm terrified that it's going to be difficult at that age. Thoughts?

S. Successor and I are in our mid-thirties and just had our first.

My mother had her fourth child a month shy of her fortieth birthday, and that kid is probably the fittest of the lot.

I'll be 34 and I imagine it will be another couple of years before we feel ready. Hopefully that won't be too old :)

I know - my mom turned 39 three days after I was born which at the time was considered incredible but isn't that outrageous by today's standards. It's just that you hear stories every now and then about how fertility starts declining at 27 and that scares the crap out of me!

Also a co-worker (who has a nine month old) and I were talking last week when he mentioned that he and his wife want another child soon. He then said, well we don't want to wait until she's in her thirties or anything (she's 28 now) as if the idea of waiting until then was horrible. I think that exchange was what got me thinking.

I was 25 myself, and my best friend was 24, but she's now trying to have another at 36 ("advanced maternal age" her doctor calls is) and is having to go through IVF. Having said that, my sister had her 4th kid last year, just after she turned 42, with no ill effects.

Everytime I see my obgyn she reminds me at 35 getting pregnant becomes a different game. She's not neccesarily discouraging but likes to make sure I understand all the extra tests that will be neccesary. It's kind of funny that 35 is this magical deadline. I know things do get harder then but why not 34? 36?

It's just the arbitrary line that medical people draw because they need to have a standard of care thing in place. I'm sure it's based on statistical models and averages.

I don't know that all the extra tests are strictly necessary, either. I mean, you might be more likely to want to or need to have an amniocentesis after age 35, but that doesn't mean that you will need to or even want to.

I had my first baby at 26 and my second (and last) at 30. Honestly, the second pregnancy was easier. That might be because my body had gone through the process before or just the nature of "every pregnancy is different," but if I wanted to do it again, I'm 35 now and I wouldn't let my age stop me.

Yes, the 35 thing is weird. It's stories like the one about Luna's friend that scare me. I've had people say that we'll never feel ready and that we'll find the time etc. but it's still definitely going to be a while yet. I don't mind the waiting at all but am just worried that when the time comes it might not be possible.

I'd like to hear some of you all's observations of this:

I've got two sets of parents since my biological parents split up when I was six. Each has remarried.

My mother had two more children with my step-father when she was 37 and 39. I'm fifteen years older than my youngest half-sibling. Mom's just a few years away from sixty now, and yet, she's still hopping. Still going to skating competitions with my sister, keeping up with my half-brother's trips to China and Estonia. She's a teacher, too, so she's surrounded by young people all day. She knows who Buffy the Vampire Slayer is, to say the least.

And then we have my father. Same age as my mother. Never had any more children after my blood sister, born during the Ford Administration. Along with my sister getting married soon and his first grandchild being born a few months ago, he's really starting to act his age. Possibly acting a little older. He makes a grand show of showing the waitress at the Dixie Cafe his pills before he takes them. He doesn't understand that last night's Sopranos is stored as a file inside the DVR and not recorded onto a tape or DVD. He seems much more wrapped up in his mortality than my mom.

There's a part of me that thinks that having a teenaged daughter when I'm fifty may make me a little "younger" than those fifty-year olds then who will be becoming grandparents. I'm not necessarily saying that I'll be hip (I'm not really hip now), but there will be less time to be singing "Sunrise, Sunset" like my dad is doing now. Is my armchair psychiatry a bit flawed or am I onto something?

I think what your describing is more a matter of personality than anything to do with age or children's age.

I've had people say that we'll never feel ready

My brother, he of 4 (who is 28 by the way), tells us similar. He says thinking and talking about it won't make it happen. It's like standing on a diving board. The more you stand there looking at the water the less likely you are to jump. :(

I don't have a maternal bone in my body at the age of 34. I like kids, I'm completely in awe of people who have them and have made a success of it, but have *never* had the desire to actually bear one of my own. I do find myself thinking that I'd be quite good at this mothering thing, but I just don't have this thing in me that makes me think I have to actually do it. Am I going to have a massive, too-late, life-changing desire to do this in December when I turn 35?

Doubt it.

I think what your describing is more a matter of personality than anything to do with age or children's age.

Quite possibly. The funny part is that Dad used to be accused of acting no older than nineteen as recently as ten years ago.

PP - I think you're totally onto something. Like I said upthread, my Mom turned 39 right after she had me. She'll be 69 this year and she's amazingly young for age. I honestly believe (and so does she) that it has something to do with the fact that she had me (her only) later in life. She even looks fantastic. This pic was taken when we were both a little tipsy at my wedding last summer. It's a crap picture of me but the only one I had of her on my work computer. Does this look like a lady of nearly 70?
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c287/expatrica/EandMomEve.jpg

xpost
Maybe he's overcompsenating. ;)

Am I going to have a massive, too-late, life-changing desire to do this in December when I turn 35?

Probably not - and even if you did, 35 is not "too late." It is just that some of the risks start to get higher and yes, fertility does start to drop in women. BUT we are all individuals, not statistics.

As for "feeling ready" - yeah. You might never feel ready, but it's sort of just something that you *do.* You'll be fine, Sam.

Again, you could be right PP. My mom's 53 and a total wreck. I think she keeps both feet in the grave and is just looking for a chance to have a seat.

PP, you know your parents best, but it does sound like you have a solid, plausible analysis there.

My husband's parents are completely resistant to change of any kind (they have finally gotten a computer with internet access this past week!), and they do seem older than my parents do... and maybe it's because my parents are more willing to be "in the world." My parents are maybe three years younger, but the difference is huge.

The 35 thing (in the UK at least) applies to due dates rather than conception, so if you're 34 and a quarter you're old :-P

Mrs O managed to have Megan while she was still officially Not Old, at 34 years and 9 months. We were 28 and 27 when we had Mark, our oldest. We tried the "wait until we're ready and have all the finances etc" approach but eventually decided that was never going to happen, especially with us going out 5 nights a week coz we had no kids :)

I think I agree with Ms. M. (multiple xposts)

Anyway, i think you're right, Beeps dodged the curly bullet.

Get back to us after Beeps hits puberty. My hair went from very light brown to dark brown in a year.

Infants $810
Toddlers $665
Two’s $605
Pre-K $580

OMGWTF WTF WTF. We paid $35/week (late 80s dollars) when Sarah was a baby. But four companies went together and built a daycare for their employees' kids, and one of the companies had a big not-for-profit community service arm, so they kept the costs low for the eligible employees.

Those childcare figures are dang scary. I don't see how you guys manage it.

I was 32 when Sarah was born, and I'm glad. If anything, I wouldn't have minded being a little older. If I'd had her much before that, I don't think I'd have done as good a job of parenting as I did.

Rock may feel differently. And as always, your mileage may vary.

You practically had to raise two kids, you cradle robber.

I should add - kind of agreeing with Jude in a way, sort of - I could have stood to be a few years older before beginning the parenting thing. Like maybe a year or two ago would have been good. Not that I'm complaining, but I think that sometimes older is the way to go.

In general, I think if you're younger you have more energy; if you're older you have more patience. You need both - so there's no perfect age...

I think I'm at the right age in terms of energy and patience. I just don't have whatever it is that makes me actually want to put it into practice. I'm genuinely interested in what it is that makes people take this massive decision.

That's a good question, and everyone has their own reasons. Right now I have no idea what mine were, but I may be a little frustrated because it is summer vacation and my 4 year old is pitching a fit about nothing.

If you don't think you want to have kids, definitely don't have them.

And if you're unsure, I'd be willing to loan you mine for the evening... ;)

Okay, crisis over - although J. continued her fit until she threw up. Fun!

It's hard to get my head back into my 25 year old mind, which was quite enthusiastic to get pregnant. We'd been married a couple of years and I think I took to heart the admonition from my mother that I should have my kids early (because we have a family history of ovarian cancer). I also knew we wanted more than one. The "why" of the first one is pretty hard to peg, though - I just did want one.

The "why" of the second is easier to figure: we didn't want Alex to be an only child. Less concretely, it didn't feel like our family was complete.

There are four years between my two kids - and the reason for that is that my first pregnancy was really difficult.

I miss the baby years, but I'm also really delighted to be moving into years when my kids get to be more independent. Alex is so self-entertaining. And we are able to get out a lot more than was the case with infants.

I'm genuinely interested in what it is that makes people take this massive decision.

In my case, I hadn't decided whether or not I wanted kids, but due to a lot of family stress and hassle around that time (my sister in law got married in December, two weeks later my father in law died, E. had to fly home for that, then it was Christmas and I was alone with my stepson and ... there was a lot of shit going on) and I skipped a couple pills and tried to take them later to make it up, but oops, nope, a month later the little test strip gave me two lines, and here we are 10 years later. An accident, yeah, but a happy one.

Parenting happens every day.

And SS and PP? You are going to grow old together - and THAT'S so wonderful.
let's applaud the happy family's, as well as the children!

Sometimes (maybe an awful lot of sometimes) the decision whether to have a child isn't so much made as surrendered to. "Accidental" pregnancies tend to happen when one or both partners want to have a child but can't decide when.

We actually planned. I would go off the pill. It would take three to six months for me to regain full fertility at my age (so we were told). I was about to move into a challenging, difficult promotion at my work, and we figured this would give me time to get past those first few awkward months before the addition of pregnancy.

Right. Man plans; God laughs.

As far as we could calculate later, I was pregnant within three weeks of going off the pill. So first-trimester wretchedness coincided precisely with the promotion... AND one of my reporters was killed in a car accident on the job during that time.

Is that how I would have chosen? No. Hell, I'd probably still be trying to decide, 20 years later. But it happened, and y'know, it worked out just fine.

I always heard it said that there's two things you can't wait until you're ready for or you'll never do them: building a house and having a baby.

And amen to happy families!

I always heard it said that there's two things you can't wait until you're ready for or you'll never do them: building a house and having a baby.

Hmm. I'm probably out, then.

metaphors, Ned!
also, the Rock Hardy family is a happy one!
I'm planning to hug some babies/kids in about two days. (Big family wedding).

The big debate for us is how long a gap to leave til we try for no.2. Do it soon and get the sleeplessness out of the way sooner? Or wait til H is a bit older and we've had a few decent kips? I am 30 next Sunday so time isn't too pressing, but even though I got knocked up in second month of trying, I wouldn't assume it would be that easy next time.

In other news: Howie's eczema is terrible at the moment, have new steroids and hypoallergenic cream to try, next step is a referral to the hospital. Poor lad can't stop scratching :(

But to cheer him up this afternoon, we are going to Monkey Music

I feel the time is right to start trying (I'm not quite thirty) but we keep making other plans. I came off the pill in October but then we booked a holiday for this August.

This kind of put us off a bit, we're determined to have at least one more holiday as a couple and I can't even contemplate going away and not being able to enjoy a drink.

We then talked of starting a family shortly after August, but found ourselves planning a camping tour of Scotland for next year!

I think we need to realise that starting a family does not mean the end of trips away.

At my ageI definitely was ready for a baby. Looking back now - hah, she's only 16 months - I would have preferred to be younger, maybe around 25, but I hadn't met the right person then. I feel that, although I don't consider myself old by any means, I did have a lot more energy in my mid20s compared to now. But hey you havce to have the right ingredients. So I had to wait. :-) With the second I doubted for about... Well, I didn't really. We decided when Ophelia was 12 months old. Quit the pill on her birthday - I was only back on it for two months or so - and I was pregnant immediately. WTF, right? I'm happy though! Very much so. But it's a whole other experience: I am more tired, since I have Ophelia to take care of, but I also know what I'm in for, so I feel more prepared (as if!). The only thing that worried me (aside from the health aspect) was how it would/will be with a second baby. I was (sadly) a single kid and so was my husband. So we don't have any clue as to how the dynamics are.

The daycare costs about 20 euros per day (about 26 dollars per day). That'd amount to about 670 dollars if you did the five days per week daycare thing, but we only do three days a week. I have *enrolled* for a fulltime daycare thing for the next one but I'm not sure we will. I mean, we can take care of her (if my husband's still working in the shop, he's planning to work for the goverment in the future). If my husband's still *around* (in the shop I mean) I think we might do much less, that way I can breastfeed longer and, hey, I think the first year it's much better to have your baby with you (they're not going to *mingle* with other babies much). That said, daycare is great for me since running a shop plus a baby is extremely hard. :-(

Rumpie, planning is a bit futile, in my opinion. Most people have to *try* for about half a year (and more) before having the first one. My husband and I tried for a year. That's why we were (pleasantly) surprised this time around but also had a WTF feeling. :-)

Traveling is, however, a bit more difficult. I did it twice (without my husband) and it's... well, a bit harder. Especially long plane trips. Going to Japan was easier now she was able to sit in a chair and also walk around. The first time, she was still in her crawling stage. Jetlag? Well, she did *suffer* a bit from it, but not that much. Food? Hah! She loved Japanese food. I think all in all I realize(d) that babies are far more flexible than I thought they were.

BTW my mom was 18 years old when she had me. About a good 2 months later she was 19. Looking back now I wonder how she coped. So so young. But she's a wonderful mom. Too bad my parents couldn't have any more. :-( They stopped trying around the age I am now. :-((( Apparently they were very lucky to have me. How funny in a way.

Yeah my mom was 20 and my father 18 when I was born. They definitely couldn't cope.

Sara speaks wisdom about patience and energy.