Evil

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matt dc you stole my thread idea

mark h, how do you define what is good? do you have to do this before you can define what is evil?

example: Bush considers Saddam evil therefore sets out to vanquish him, doing a number of things other people consider evil along the way but arguing that they are necessary, the lesser of two evils as it were

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:20 (twenty years ago) link

than maybe a better of two goods (from outer space hopefully) will come for Bush

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:21 (twenty years ago) link

Those who will oppose the interests of Corporate America.

― neil simpson (neil simpson), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:21 (twenty years ago) link

a useless word.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:22 (twenty years ago) link

it only exists as a judgement, it's only worth is in cartoons.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:22 (twenty years ago) link

To what extent are the following people 'evil', based on what we know about them:

Saddam Hussein
George W Bush
Ian Huntley
Tony Blair
Osama Bin Laden
The Washington sniper

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:22 (twenty years ago) link

Bush considers Saddam evil therefore sets out to vanquish him

of course a more realistic version of this is: Bush considers Saddam to be the obstacle in getting what he wants in order to benefit him and his country which he considers good...

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link

what Eartha Kitt wants to be

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link

http://web.media.mit.edu/~stefan/movies/timebandits3.jpg

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link

i was hoping that one side effect of 9/11 is that the word 'evil' wouldn't be thrown around in american political discourse as loosely as it had been the previous ten years, and for a while (a year maybe, or however long 9/11 really registered on the national conciousness) it did, but nowadays it gets flung even more loosely.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link

I think Nickalicious just won.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

Are paedophiles and rapists evil? No, only the act they commit is evil. A gun is not evil but the use of it in certain situations and for certain motives is.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

What about Gargamel?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:26 (twenty years ago) link

http://www.knievelweek.com/ekfront.jpg

― NA (Nick A.), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:26 (twenty years ago) link

I think stevem's question sounds more like T/S: Means vs ends (again)

xpost - stevem's previous question.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:26 (twenty years ago) link

If I walk down to my local shopping centre and abduct and then drown one small child for no reason and with no subsequent feelings of guilt, does that make me more evil than the world leader who bombs and kills thousands of innocents in another country because he believes it is for the greater good in the long run?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:26 (twenty years ago) link

what was Gargamel's raison d'etre? to obliterate the Smurfs or to just live a quiet life without people stealing his mushrooms?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:27 (twenty years ago) link

None of them are evil, yeesh I'm on major overload of talking about the Soham thing elsewhere but basically I just feel this whole notion of decrying people like Huntley as evil is just a means for useless wasters to make themselves feel like the very fact they have never committed murder is an achievement in itself, the fact that they are a part of society and not "evil" or "warped" is a bloody fine achievement too.

It's a word used by people who are conservative to distance themselves from criminals, this always makes me feel uncomfortable. I've never committed serious crime, and hopefully never will but I really hate the sense of self righteousness that suggests the vast majority of society JUST AREN'T CAPABLE OF SUCH EVIL, Huntley is a human being like the rest of us.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:27 (twenty years ago) link

there is little more depressing than the idea that humans are inherently evil, however it is true that humans are inherently capable of committing 'evil' deeds

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:29 (twenty years ago) link

Humans aren't inherently evil; they're inherently selfish. Big difference.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:29 (twenty years ago) link

WTF blount? One of the first results of September 11th was that people started to talk with a straight face about war being waged on the basis of "good vs evil".

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:30 (twenty years ago) link

AMERICAN political discourse

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link

I don't even like the discussion of deeds as "evil", I just hate the term and find it dehumanising and distancing. I sometimes suspect I might be a wacko liberal on issues of morality, or just cold and unable to think of this sort of thing in emotional terms, so I'm open to negotiation.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:32 (twenty years ago) link

if there's a period in history when people didn't talk with a straight face about war being waged on the basis of good vs. evil lemme know when

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:32 (twenty years ago) link

what about Stan? Is Stan evil?

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:33 (twenty years ago) link

so how would you describe the act of rape or abuse Ronan? evil seems as good a term as any doesn't it?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:33 (twenty years ago) link

inserting moralism into foreign policy leads to kosovo, removing it leads to cambodia, i know what side i'm on

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:33 (twenty years ago) link

I don't think it's too wrong to describe somebody as 'evil'. Somebody who was always forgetting birthdays or appointments or whatever could be described as 'a forgetful person' and nobody would quibble that it should be 'a person who does forgetful things'. The problem as Ronan says is the implication that evil is innate and some people (i.e. you or me) JUST AREN'T.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:34 (twenty years ago) link

i accept that calling them 'evil' invariably leads to demonisation of perpetrators and that is a problem though.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:34 (twenty years ago) link

I just wouldn't describe it, I don't think a moral description is of any use to anyone. I'd base the justice system on how dangerous the person is, end of story. I guess that is how our justice systems are, anyone know the British or Irish constitutions?

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:35 (twenty years ago) link

well 'evil' becomes useful in assessing what is and isn't dangerous and how to legislate for it, i'm not sure you can avoid this really.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:36 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah maybe I'd prefer something like "malice", evil feels too religios or biblical to me.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:41 (twenty years ago) link

and 'malice' doesn't???

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:41 (twenty years ago) link

Having had a good atheistic upbringing 'evil' just reminds me of D&D frankly.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:42 (twenty years ago) link

Well what do you suggest, I'm not happy with either, clearly. Is this argument different from an American perspective?

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:43 (twenty years ago) link

FWIW I didn't really have a major catholic upbringing, but I guess by osmosis relatively I did maybe, living in Ireland.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link

i don't know why but when i think of the term the word 'necessary' appears also, the notion that in this world 'good' is something to be aspired to but probably never actually achieved completely, whereas we achieve/serve 'evil' every day with nearly all of our actions to some extent or another and all one can hope for or work towards is some effort (which if you're lucky might be at the end of your life add up to something strong enough to qualify as a 'gesture') towards minimizing it. just thinking out loud.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:47 (twenty years ago) link

let's not get too bogged down in the strength of the term - i'm more interested in how useful it is to compare wrongness i.e. Bush and Saddam or whatever. is it useful to keep referring to Bush, Nike, GAP, Starbucks and whatever else as 'evil'? most people accept that they do a lot of unethical things but perhaps for a generally recognised 'good' (generation of wealth)? Capitalists call Communism evil and vice versa, that's an interesting thing with regards to the word and it's meaning.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:48 (twenty years ago) link

whoops, still haven't read No Logo - sorry bout that

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:49 (twenty years ago) link

I don't think comparisons are really useful, surely logical argument as to flaws is better (aesthetically) than snappy judgements of "evil". Mind you the latter fits on posters.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:49 (twenty years ago) link

Blount - I'm not sure. 'Evil' to me seems like an extreme, it's more than just 'not good'. You can't be just 'mildly evil' - and while I suspect things like nicking a couple of quid from someone or having a one-night stand and leaving without saying goodbye are certainly bad and nasty things its a bit of a stretch to equate them with 'evil'.

(xposts)

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:52 (twenty years ago) link

again, both Saddam and Bush are regarded as evil but they are two very different people doing very different things. whether you think 'evil' is the one thing they have in common or that it's use on both of them means it is an abused term or one that needs to be explored further in terms of what it can mean is the thing.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:54 (twenty years ago) link

But even so Matt I don't see what's wrong with an extreme adjective. Plenty of adjectives don't get 'mildly' attached to them.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:55 (twenty years ago) link

ha ha this reminds me of the final double-issue of Swamp Thing American Gothic. In "The End" the marauding evil entity thing is asking all the goodies about it's nature. it's quite moving

― Jaunty Alan (Alan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:56 (twenty years ago) link

same goes for Bin Laden, very different to both Bush and Saddam, but considered just as evil if not more so! this does not seem useful at all. Bush is the one I have the most in common with (as does everyone here, regardless of how much we think he is a twunt messing things up around the world) and that alone may be why I was prepared to consider him less evil than the other two. interesting...

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:56 (twenty years ago) link

Following on from Ronan's train of thought, surely there's a difference between evil as a propaganda term (cf communism/capitalism and Bush/Saddam) and the complete absence of any kind of conscience coupled with a degree of sadism and the willingness to act upon it that I define as evil.

I suppose I'm interested in what made someone like Dr Harold Shipman kill lots of people apparently just for the sake of it.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:56 (twenty years ago) link

Shipman = curiosity as perversion. this can be more disturbing than rape, abuse, murder and even mass genocide as head of state as it's harder to understand/rationalise.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 15:59 (twenty years ago) link

Matt:

Would he be less evil if it benefitted him?
Would he be less evil if it benefitted others?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 16:00 (twenty years ago) link

I think it really is just for the sake of it, sometimes. Human beings are doing all sorts of seemingly inexplicable things, is it not possible that someone develops an interest in killing the same way someone else develops an interest in something else? It sounds awful but humans are really adaptable, the why of any major thing we do is rooted in psycho-analysis I suppose but even then it's a shady concept.

Why do we like what we like or why are we who we are is a question not answered entirely, it's real meaning of life stuff you're getting at in some ways. I think so, anyway.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 16:00 (twenty years ago) link

Im wouldn't shake hands with Bush or Saddam... "evil" is a word we use to identify something foreign to the majority of us (i.e. rape/ murder/ kiddy fiddling/ George Bush's brain etc) and in this way it can be defended. However, it becomes slightly more grey when people use it without wish to think about what they do with their own lives (surely me buying a few pints and getting drunk instead of using said money to buy a homeless person lunch is "evil" or at the very least inconsiderate? And to what extent are we all guilty of this?)

― C-Man (C-Man), Tuesday, 16 December 2003 16:06 (twenty years ago) link

Skipping 19 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

pied paper tiger?

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 22:43 (twenty years ago) link

piper! how did I say paper. weird.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 22:45 (twenty years ago) link

N was a pied pedantic figure, who lured posters into mistake.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 22:45 (twenty years ago) link

I do like the idea of being pied in some respect.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 22:46 (twenty years ago) link

momus.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 22:46 (twenty years ago) link

I'm sorry?

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 22:49 (twenty years ago) link

I agree with your post btw N. I find it incredibly hard to think of things as evil. I must say though the power of the Soham thing blasts through even a dud documentary to the extent where, on my way to the shop I found myself wondering if I was wrong not to be able to condemn Huntley as "evil". In some sense I guess that wondering is a form of condemnation.

I don't think it's Huntley's fault he was messed up or insane or something. I was surprised by how much the police condemned him aswell on the documentary, it felt unprofessional to me.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 22:51 (twenty years ago) link

it's probably different for parents (many of the policemen and women may have their own families) - it's hard for me to imagine but i can see that having your own children makes you much more emotionally biased about these things, and demonisation can even offer a comfort of some kind. certainly there is little if any solace in finding your children have been murdered horrifically 'but it's just one of those things' - hopefully in time they will be able to just accept that it happened.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 18 December 2003 13:10 (twenty years ago) link

eight months pass...

How Evil Are You?

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 05:57 (nineteen years ago) link

Try again:

How Evil Are You?

― the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 05:57 (nineteen years ago) link

How evil are you?

― PinXor (Pinkpanther), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 06:54 (nineteen years ago) link

DAmnit, I am barely evil at all, apparently!

― PinXor (Pinkpanther), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 06:54 (nineteen years ago) link

http://home.att.net/~slugbutter/evil/twisted.jpg

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 06:57 (nineteen years ago) link

Good

Define it

― endymion, Tuesday, 31 August 2004 15:24 (nineteen years ago) link

How evil are you?

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:13 (nineteen years ago) link

hah, oh well, it said I was good.

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 16:14 (nineteen years ago) link

apparently i'm pretty evil.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 31 August 2004 17:19 (nineteen years ago) link

one year passes...

My question is, we know that evil is out there, right, and we know that evil folks are actively working away, so what do we do about it?

i mean, this happens everywhere from folks in your town to those in your elected government. Seriously, what do one do about the evil in the world?

― kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 10 February 2006 17:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Put on an iron shirt and chase Satan out of earth, I'd say.

― chap who would dare to be completely sober on the internet (chap), Friday, 10 February 2006 18:03 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, but how does that work with the evil motherfuckers that are calling the shots in some places?

― kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 10 February 2006 18:06 (eighteen years ago) link

"Put on an iron shirt and chase Satan out of earth, I'd say."

hahaha! I love that song.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 10 February 2006 18:23 (eighteen years ago) link

Humans will be better off when we scrap the concept of "evil" and focus more on what kind of behavior harms humanity.

Seems to me most evil in fact is tied to selfishness of some kind

-- ermes marana (ermin...), December 17th, 2003

Bingo. To me the worst crimes in existence can always be boiled down to thievery of some sort (murder is the ultimate act of thievery).

― i thunk, Friday, 10 February 2006 18:33 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, I think you can probably boil evil down to a weird outgrowth of self-absorption, an inability to see beyond the limits of one's own personal gratification, a failure to empathize. In that sense, its strictly a human social construct.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 10 February 2006 18:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Both OTM.

― chap who would dare to be completely sober on the internet (chap), Friday, 10 February 2006 19:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Then what to do about it?

― kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 10 February 2006 19:21 (eighteen years ago) link

I wish I knew.

― chap who would dare to be completely sober on the internet (chap), Friday, 10 February 2006 19:22 (eighteen years ago) link

i don't know, but i think to see it clearly there has to be some kind of recognition of bits of it in yourself.

― Maria (Maria), Saturday, 11 February 2006 05:55 (eighteen years ago) link

You can't do anything about evil itself, all you can do is fight evil in your personal sphere. For example, try to not be evil yourself. But evil will always exist as long as good exists. I think its part of western Christian myth to feel like we must always be fighting evil in the world, but really as Neitshze pointed out evil is our own concept and somewhat relative. We coudl also just say evil exists and so what.

― Mr Jones (Mr Jones), Saturday, 11 February 2006 06:43 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't know. Some things I think are undeniably evil. Like harming a child. If anyone harmed someone in my family, I wouldn't hesitate to say what they had done was evil.

Evil is the absence of good. Evil is a violation.

But I do like what Ghandi said about confronting what was evil in ourselves before we fought evil outside of ourselves.

Then again, I don't think this goes against the Christian myth. In fact I think it is consistent. Ghandi did say in his autobiography that he thought Christianity was perhaps the one perfectly true religion. Unfortunately he experienced racist Christians, and was disenfranchised as a result...

― Freud Junior (Freud Junior), Saturday, 11 February 2006 06:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Then again, I am probably taking this thread way too seriously. ;)

― Freud Junior (Freud Junior), Saturday, 11 February 2006 06:57 (eighteen years ago) link

I think "evil" is a religious idea. It would be better to say "undesired things". Besides, evil is an ambiguous concept - supose someone harmed a child while thinking they were helping the child. Is that evil?

― Mr Jones (Mr Jones), Saturday, 11 February 2006 07:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Serious is evil? ;)

Couldnt we also say natural evil exists and that many good things flow from confronting it, ie it allows people to be at their very best (or worst), what about the role of evil in character formation, could we not argue that far from being a non issue evil allows ouselves to be fully human?

― Kiwi, Saturday, 11 February 2006 07:02 (eighteen years ago) link

What do you mean by "natural evil?"

― Mr Jones (Mr Jones), Saturday, 11 February 2006 07:06 (eighteen years ago) link

If you're a long way from home,
Can't sleep at night.
Grab your telephone,
Something just ain't right.
That's evil,
Evil is goin' on wrong.
I am warnin' ya brother,
You better watch your happy home.
Well, long way from home and,
Can't sleep at all.
You know another mule,
Is kickin' in your stall.

That's evil,
Evil is goin' on wrong.
I am warnin' ya brother,
You better watch your happy home.

(Spoken: You better catch him, 'cause somethin' wrong, in your home.)

Well, if ya call her on the telephone,
And she answers aweful slow,
Grab the first train smokin',
If you have to hobo.

That's evil,
Evil is goin' on wrong.
I am warnin' ya brother,
You better watch your happy home.

If you make it to your house,
Knock on the front door,
Run around to the back,
You'll catch him just before he go.

That's evil,
Evil is goin' on.
I am warnin' ya brother,
You better watch your happy home.

--"Evil" by Howlin' Wolf

― Mama Roux, Saturday, 11 February 2006 07:07 (eighteen years ago) link

mr jones, lots of undesirable things are not evil. the classic distinction is between human actions and natural disasters, for instance. evil's usually particularly applied as a moral judgment on human actions, and that doesn't necessarily make it a religious judgment.

i guess emotionally it seems religious though. the idea of evil seems more fitting and less horrendous given the idea of an overwhelming good.

― Maria (Maria), Saturday, 11 February 2006 15:07 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think evil as an absolute can logically exist without some kind of external moral force (ie God, in whom I don't believe). It's just a personal moral judgment.

This doesn't mean I think murderers, rapists, dictators etc. are anything other than absolute bastards, just that it's not at all useful to explain away that kind of behaviour by saying 'They did because they are EVIL!'

― chap who would dare to be completely sober on the internet (chap), Saturday, 11 February 2006 15:18 (eighteen years ago) link

seven years pass...

waaaah evil

^^^the last 3 days on this fkn website

― imago, Wednesday, 17 July 2013 22:16 (ten years ago) link

Evil is defined by bad deeds done for no reason
Like putting powder in the restaurant seasoning

― Pingu Unchained (dog latin), Wednesday, 17 July 2013 22:51 (ten years ago) link

The most hard for the least good

― mundane peaceable username (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 July 2013 23:31 (ten years ago) link

two years pass...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/08/31/its-now-or-never-texts-reveal-teens-efforts-to-pressure-boyfriend-into-suicide/?tid=pm_pop_b

― j., Tuesday, 1 September 2015 01:31 (eight years ago) link

I saw that on Gawker, really having trouble understanding why she would do that. Evil sounds right.

― Iago Galdston, Tuesday, 1 September 2015 01:37 (eight years ago) link

I was wondering if she couldn't have genuinely believed he was better off dead. grim thought but maybe the kindest interpretation idk.

― deejerk reactions (darraghmac), Tuesday, 1 September 2015 04:29 (eight years ago) link

jfc that is disturbing read
maybe sthing of munchausen-by-proxy to it
but i'm fine with calling it evil

― drash, Tuesday, 1 September 2015 04:48 (eight years ago) link

“Not yet LOL,” he replied.

― drash, Tuesday, 1 September 2015 04:48 (eight years ago) link

yep, that's definitely evil.

also evil: when people on the internet start calling her family with death threats, which has probably already happened, because lol, the internet.

― rushomancy, Wednesday, 2 September 2015 11:38 (eight years ago) link

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