Any reason why ILM is so quiet these days?

personally i miss having a dividing line between my obsession w/ music nerdery & my real world life

This is what I'm not on Facebook. Not so much the music angle, but just not wanting to mix realms. Facebook provides ways to filter people out, true, but it has a history of being cavalier about changing those settings without adequate warning. I was on Facebook briefly and was freaked out when people I hardly knew at work were friending me. "These aren't my friends!" Obviously I am not FB material. I don't want this person's vulgar jokes on my wall, or that person's boring talk about being at home but thinking about professional issues.

xp lol, yeah, ilm definitely has a pedigree you won't find on other music forums. That's one of the best things about it. I also discovered a bunch of my favorite writers (including tons of ppl on this thread) here

unless you're talking about something like Afropop or old Arabic music there's going to be someone telling you whatever you like is shit and/or morally wrong in some way

But a lot of the time that's because nobody is going to say much of anything about those posts. (Sorry to be so ubiquitous today--suddenly procrastinating a lot.)

btw ned raggett was the reason i started posting here. i was like whoa its the guy from allmusic guide ... awesome

then we argued

I seem to recall you were insistent I read Blues People without asking first if I already had.

you really should read it though

people explain things to ned raggett

its a good book although subsequent reading has complicated its appeal for me

unless you're talking about something like Afropop or old Arabic music there's going to be someone telling you whatever you like is shit and/or morally wrong in some way

man why are people on ilx of all places all of a sudden so sensitive to disagreement? i say this as someone who just spent 80 posts arguing about lil peep w/ half the board telling me he wasn't worth 2 seconds of attention but: if people arent arguing about it or care about it enough to argue about, what's there even to talk about? How can you even have a conversation with people afraid to say they like or dislike something bc it might offend someone else's ability to like something?

But a lot of the time that's because nobody is going to say much of anything about those posts.

That was my post, a long time ago. So yeah, it's understandable, but it looks like hostility unless you're accustomed to it. It's great that this thread hasn't shifted into "hostility is great because it keeps the plebs / weekend bikers out" but there's still a fair amount of that around, especially in the EOY poll threads, not explicitly of course, but more like someone saying "X is shit" is fine and requires nothing more in terms of argument but "X is good" is repping for something which apparently requires a much higher standard of evidence for some reason. (this has all been covered ad nauseam already, ik)

this was like the place i learned how to question received wisdom & assumptions about what was worth my time and whether i was expressing myself honestly, and yeah you had to have a thick skin to not see disagreement as personal, esp when people getting zinged were liable to see that zing archived on noize board so everyone could lol @ it some more. but these were positive things in my development as a listener—and fuck my career, i just mean as a thinking human being who values discussion & thoughtful interpretation of art. its just weird to me that ppl want ilx to just be a recommendation engine

That was my post, a long time ago. So yeah, it's understandable, but it looks like hostility unless you're accustomed to it. It's great that this thread hasn't shifted into "hostility is great because it keeps the plebs / weekend bikers out" but there's still a fair amount of that around, especially in the EOY poll threads, not explicitly of course, but more like someone saying "X is shit" is fine and requires nothing more in terms of argument but "X is good" is repping for something which apparently requires a much higher standard of evidence for some reason. (this has all been covered ad nauseam already, ik)

― Camaraderie at Arms Length, Tuesday, February 7, 2017 5:46 PM (thirty-three seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think its cool that ppl want ilx to be nicer, i agree, mean ilx was kind of bogus, but i dont want people holding back on their opinions of a piece of art bc they're afraid it'll upset delicate sensibilities. People have different experiences to bring to the table, if anything ilx is very ideologically anti-Expert, that you earn your contribution every time you post something... idk people apparently have a very difft pov than i do on what this board was good at

D-40 - full content of my post (from miles up the page) is this

I've just been here a couple of years and yeah, it's not particularly welcoming, but it's more that unless you're talking about something like Afropop or old Arabic music there's going to be someone telling you whatever you like is shit and/or morally wrong in some way, and as a newcomer there's no way to judge how much of this is irony or performative hyperbole. I'm old enough now to not really care enough about this to storm off in a huff, but even five years ago I would've (mis)understood this to be some sort of personal animosity, and wouldn't have bothered any more.

if anything ilx is very ideologically anti-Expert

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 23:49

As long as it's not in a Michael Gove way.

Not anti-expert but just room for different levels.

My attitude to most music is that either I love it, or I'll try to work out what it is I'm not getting about it, then if that doesn't work then I just won't bother with it any more, I know this isn't most people's approach on here, but IDK, it seems reasonable enough to me.

i am a little bit flabbergasted that people here can bring up shit folks said ten years ago and put it to bear on a current argument - not because i think it's bad or anything but because i'm envious. goddamn, i'm never going to think of poster karl malone as anybody but karl malone and i just read his birth name (zach braff or something i think) ten minutes ago.

lol something i wrote when i was 19 was just brought up here

i should probably quit this place... if only social media wasnt worse

people explain things to ned raggett

― increasingly bonkers (rushomancy), Tuesday, February 7, 2017 6

I'm ready to create the thread.

Oh dear.

i was like whoa its the guy from allmusic guide ... awesome

i also had this experience, but i don't think we ever argued. it's understood that his disdain for superchunk and mine for buckaroo banzai have made us mortal enemies; no real need to discuss it

i think, aside from perhaps generational/historical shifts in taste and sensibility, there is just a rough limit on the scope of what there is to get / not get about music, and collectively ilm has arrived at it (it's not hard to do), so lacking an infusion of people committed to not getting / figuring out how to get anything (who are often young people for obvious reasons), it does not really meet the conditions necessary for motivating energetic conflicts about whether or how to get things anymore.

like e.g. i'm not into fleetwood mac, never really tried to be into them, understand that some people are v. v. into them and think there is something great to get about them, but i accept the coexistence of that with my disinterest in them. when i was 19 maybe i could have been goaded into an intensive consideration of them that provoked me to re-draw some mental lines, but now even if those lines actually stand in need of a little more re-drawing i am not willfully opposed to that happening by virtue of my existing tastes or beliefs about their social meaning. also, and probably more relevant to changes and stases in ilm over time, i don't feel like i would find out lots more about other individuals or other social meanings by making a point of trying to get fleetwood mac. probably some, but nothing that would be a revolution in my mind.

collectively it seems like we are not as reflective about any of that as we used to be, but 'we' are older and the world (including the world of reflection) is different, too.

many xps Karl Malone used to post as Z S and I tend to think of him that way

I always assume people remember me not as "mh" but as the many storied posts I made as Momus

"like e.g. i'm not into fleetwood mac, never really tried to be into them, understand that some people are v. v. into them and think there is something great to get about them, but i accept the coexistence of that with my disinterest in them. when i was 19 maybe i could have been goaded into an intensive consideration of them that provoked me to re-draw some mental lines, but now even if those lines actually stand in need of a little more re-drawing i am not willfully opposed to that happening by virtue of my existing tastes or beliefs about their social meaning. also, and probably more relevant to changes and stases in ilm over time, i don't feel like i would find out lots more about other individuals or other social meanings by making a point of trying to get fleetwood mac. probably some, but nothing that would be a revolution in my mind."

i'm not sure i follow what you're saying totally j but danny kirwan's tunes for fleetwood mac are the shit, particularly "dragonfly", and i wouldn't even have given kirwan the time of day until about two years ago.

What can I say? People need Stevie Nicks in their lives.

xp mentally i am contrasting what i am saying with like ilm conflicts of yore over all of genre x or musician y being irredeemable, beyond the pale, etc

man why are people on ilx of all places all of a sudden so sensitive to disagreement?

I don't think anybody is against disagreement. But there's a big difference between friendly sparring, strong opinions and pointed retorts, all of which are more or less in the spirit of consensual conversation, and sustained, one-sided personal attacks. Like, your opinions are strongly stated and sharply argued, which is why your posts have so much value (also you have great recommendations), but you're never trying to provoke a flame war or anything.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-17-2015/lNO8dg.gif

i also had this experience, but i don't think we ever argued. it's understood that his disdain for superchunk and mine for buckaroo banzai have made us mortal enemies; no real need to discuss it

Wisdom indeed.

not surprised but also not overly happy about the conflation of "there should be less toxicity, preferably none" and "no one can ever say anything critical about an artist again"

"no one can ever say anything critical about an artist again"

Is anyone saying that? I'm not saying that.

if there's another interpretation of "How can you even have a conversation with people afraid to say they like or dislike something bc it might offend someone else's ability to like something?" I'd love to hear it

oh well for the record im against toxicity & in favor of people not feeling alienated because the ringtone rap crew have different taste in rap than them

Ok, but who are the "people afraid to say they like or dislike something bc it might offend someone else's ability to like something" being referred to?

a community can form a group consensus that something is bad, even if a community member likes it! you just kind of have to shrug it off, and maybe be vindicated elsewhere or by time when everyone mysteriously seems to have always like your fave in five years time

I mean there has to be one person on ilm who is a secret drake stan despite his zero vote showing on the year end polls

lol

drake is actually a really good example here because people have been doxxed, sent death threats, etc. for having the wrong opinion about drake at the wrong time

(a different crowd, yes, but it should illustrate the vast difference between "toxicity" and "upsetting delicate sensibilities")

ppl have no chill

OP: Honestly, I still seem to think about everything in terms of when I became familiar with their parent genres (1982-2002), and I'm not sure we've had a distinctly new genre since 2002.

Yes, the last thing(s) I found new and worth much breath hailing were electroclash and Berlin minimal, both of which were arguably revivals themselves. Since then, what was the last new thing? Bubblegum Bass which is recognizable dead end? Slightly new paths of self-promotion with the visual album (from Beyonce to iamamiwhoami)?

Or maybe one can't see the new after I turned 32. Its depressing.

also key to this, I think, is "as a newcomer there's no way to judge how much of this is irony or performative hyperbole." I don't know the cutoff for "newcomer" but I basically have zero fucking idea who dislikes whom, who ironically dislikes whom and who simply appears to dislike whom, which would be fine if this shit didn't bubble up everywhere and for the most petty and trivial of reasons (this thread got revived due to someone, on their own initiative and off site, making *spotify playlists*)

katherine - just realised we are coming from 100% the same side but I was too dopey to twig, soz

I also have zero idea who's on what side

Katherine I'm in the same boat and I've been here for 10+ years

what toxicity is bubbling up over spotify playlists? i think they're bad and dumb & i'm saying so so i'm like someone who doxxed somebody over drake? what?

here's an entire thread of it Are you cool with forks making Spotify playlists out of every rolling thread without permission?

(note the date stamps -- the revival of this thread is spillover from the revival of that one)

xp I'm not following. There's toxicity in that thread?

in what universe is me being mad at forks for making playlists out of rolling thread discussion a toxic environment that leads to ppl being doxxed for liking drake??

there are maybe a couple people that actively irritate me, a few I joke with but appreciate (usually the list-obsessive or deep divers on ilm, the idiosyncratic grumps on ile movie and politics threads) and a bunch I really enjoy and think make that clear?

the thing I learned most in life out of a dark period is that making a point to express appreciation is important in life. without being a grandiose weirdo, if possible

a) the fact that something as simple as making playlists, which would not even register as a problem to 99% of the "newcomers" you're talking about, can make one the subject of a pile-on thread is, I would say, toxicity

b) I'm not saying this environment is like that, I'm just saying that people are approaching this question with very different realms of possibility in mind

(also, A) becomes a lot more charged for those whose real-life identities are associated with their posts.)

a pile-on thread

Yes 181
Not 28