theresa may: is her project subtly machiavellian or merely cunning, baldrick-style?

yes i was going to say, the trump comparison seems weirdly strained -- he's looking to explain TM's sky-high polling obviously, but of course trump's polling ISN'T sky-high (especially in the UK, tho that's not really relevant to his point)

there's an element of the usual self-loathing westminster-bubble overcompensation here (runciman IS an insider after all): can't we pointy-headed elitists grasp that here is a pol that connects with [whatever the current buzzword for "real people out there who never munch" is]?

She has a lot in common with Major, not least that they made PM without having to face the electorate, but that in many ways they are the platonic ideal of a certain class of Tory. Workmanlike, unpretentious, small pleasures (Major's cricket/May's gardening) rather than flashy Blair/Cameron cosying up to cool Britannia, Tracey Emin et al.

*i once heard a tory grandee on the telly describing heath's accent as "working class" which spun my head round a bit, but maps something out abt relations in the party -- and major's class background is famously hard to get a clear sociological read on

assume this is from the Michael Cockerell documentary, iirc the grandee is an Oxford contemporary who, when asked about Heath being an atypical Oxford undergrad due to his class background, says something about him having "a pronounced cockney accent, which of course he retains to this day". I think this is followed by Cockerell relating this to observation to Heath and asking for his opinion, Heath seems visibly amused but doesn't go further than diplomatically/gently saying that he would not describe his accent as such.

I also remember reading a quote by someone to the effect that non-posh ppl of Heath's generation who made it to Oxford quickly tended to either attempt to assimilate and adopt the accent, mannerisms, dress sense etc of their upper-class collegues, or do the opposite and defiantly assert and empahsise their background, whereas Heath was unusual in that he did neither, didn't try to cling to his lower middle-class origins but also never seemed ashamed of or tried to disguise them. idk if being congenitally disconnected from humanity in general made it easier for him to adjust to being disconnected from his class via upward mobilty?

yes, you're quite right, it was was the documentary and it was "cockney accent" -- which is equally head-spinning of course

"was was the" s/b "was that"

heath, thatcher, major and now may all leaders from a lower middle-class* background arriving with a degree of embedded contempt for those who would thoughtlessly and blithely consider themselves their "betters" (though all of them i think negotiated this complicated fact in different ways)

Is being a vicar's daughter lower middle class?

According to Wikipedia, lower middle class = Hyacinth Bucket. That's useful.

I had a month of doing a liftshare with a middle-aged lower-middle-class conservative lady, it was quite a good experience in terms of hearing her explain her viewpoint and the reasoning behind it - not because this viewpoint is unrepresented (it most certainly isn't) but because it's so ubiquitous in the countryside in the south east that nobody ever feels they need to explain it from inside rather than outside.

Her assessment of Theresa May was that she seemed like a decent, professional person who was taking her job very seriously, working hard and standing up for the majority of people in the country. She had not heard anyone say that she was much worse at policy detail and negotiation than at internal party maneuvering. For my part all I could do was tell her my personal experiences of dealing with TM's immigration policies, how they had wrecked a year of my family's life for no conceivable reason, but not sure I made much headway - there are deeper prejudices underlying everything in this country, and I suspect that having a foreign wife and children makes me to some extent an outsider and an intruder, my experience less important than the majority who just want to get on with their lives and not worry about things changing.

I didn't tell her that I hate TM more than anyone in the world right now, though I do. Aside from everything she has done to me, she reminds me of a manager I had who steamrollered through "projects" with no regard to either peoples lives or measurable success. I find these sort of people the most insufferable on the planet, and would genuinely prefer a manager who was incompetent, didn't turn up or even was nakedly money-grasping.

xp
"economically secure, without being well-off" could probably describe some C of E vicars - I notice TM's old man had a side-gig as a chaplain. Probably a decent little 2nd income when you are already living rent free.

Vicars earn like £17k which is below a lot of entry-level office jobs but yeah it's hardly a precarious existence nonetheless.

low pay, free house, help with bills etc., flipside is that if you have to leave your job (or are squeezed out) you lose your house. it's a bit of an anomaly

i had may's grandparents in mind when i said that tbh: vicar is quite hard to place class-wise (as ppl note they're not paid much)

same as music hall performer/garden gnome purveyor maybe

could it be.. hear me out, now... that there was a time when social status was not entirely tied to income and/or wealth

i had may's grandparents in mind when i said that tbh

I did think that. Was it at an ILB FAP I was talking about my great-grandfather's strange double life as water board inspector/theatrical entrepreneur?

you did tom :)

true tracer, but May is only four years older than me -- the social status of vicars has inevitably drifted down with the cultural status of the church

i'm jumping in here cause my grandfather was a methodist minister, with many of the same parameters - house paid for, low salary. in his case he had to move every three or four years. when he arrived in one town, the story goes that the lay leaders in the congregation there told him part of the package was hay for his horses, should he want it. he said no, but he'd appreciate some gas for his chevrolet! BA DOOM. but anyway what i'm getting at is that he enjoyed quite a bit of prestige in each of these small towns. i imagine rural texas has a few differences with the cotswolds, mind you...

my memory of a small shropshire village is that there was quite a shift even between the early 70s and the late -- the elderly incumbent when we first moved there (who had been in role for years) had a heft, despite fraility, that younger successors never achieved

there's a line in kipling's stalky where one of the boys -- heir to thousands of irish acres -- responds to a teacher chastising him, in a tone that says [from memory] "you are but an usher hired to interpret the classics to me" -- this jumped into my head as i was trying to capture the attitude the more landed locals had to the younger successors, it overstates it but it was there (it doesn't help that the one i particularly have in mind was a fluting idiot)

wouldn't say the prestige/weird respect/fear afforded to clergy in the UK has many if any tangible benefits for their families

Wasn't the villager C of E tradition to hand a vicarage to the effete third or fourth son of some local lord or baronet, kind of a loads of class but no money scenario?

... and no brains either.

The Very Rev. Tim Nice-but-Dim

not exactly: back in the first half of the 19th century, a third son of the aristocracy would probably be steered towards the church (second went into the military) -- but this meant bishops not vicars on the whole, and didn't survive into the 20th century (also you p much had to pass exams to go into the church from the 18th century onwards, not all effect sons of baronets could manage this)

the early part of james woodforde's diary of a country parsonage is about securing the money to live as he wanted -- it's basically family money and he was very uncertain that any of it would come his way (in the end i think some did)… it mainly went on staff and upkeep of the parsonage ands its lands AND of the church (these were often in terrible condition)

(lol i read this bcz it was an xmas present to me from the father of my first gf: it is interesting though on daily life -- woodforde ate a COLOSSAL amount of meat and his daily regime included five regular meals a day)

effect = effete

My knowledge of C of E vicars is largely based on Kind Hearts and Coronets tbf.

Anglicanism is a mystery to me, frankly.

if Fielding's to be believed then the majority of country parishes where low-paid and low-prestige in the 18th century, I suspect that's generally been true of the church's foot soldiers throughout its existence

My cousin is married to the dean of the next parish over. Seems about the most middle-class existence imaginable, albeit without any money, though i don't know if Eastbourne is notably different from slightly further inland.

That LRB article is really great. Lots to digest and actually the curious class/wealth position of the English clergy seems to explain a lot about how May's been received even though she hasn't had to explicitly define herself in those terms.

(As the son of a rural CoE vicar it is surprisingly difficult to actually explain those terms: yes, social status with no actual money is completely true, but there's this incredibly weird way in which clergy families are both integral to and separated from rural communities - ie regardless of actual church attendance or belief the idea that the vicar is some sort of figurehead is crucial, but due to the nature of clergy work and the tortuous politics of rural parishes I think most clergy families deliberately (possibly are told??) don't socialise with their parishioners or educate their kids at the village school etc - and doubtless there's an element of snobbery here too. But maybe more to the point w/r/t the acceptance of May by the rural Tory grassroots is that the "clergy family" as an institution might float slightly above the rest of the community, might invite a weird kind of deference (or outright hatred if village politics end up that way) but it's such a known, familiar factor compared to eg Cameron's PR career. This is kind of garbled, it's weirdly hard to explain when you've lived through it.)

my experience again -- so very much not trying to trump lex's -- but "deference" isn't quite the word: more like an unquestioned pre-set recognition that this was a person who was going to be included in all kinds of events and discussions (social and occasionally local-political), and was often practically speaking going to given the final say as of right (even if the decision wasn't one which this or that senior villager at all liked)

Don't some vicars get assistance with private school places, to avoid kids at local schools?

yeah that's right, deference isn't quite the word but I couldn't think of any other

xp and yes, though I don't think that was the stated reason

lots of private schools -- many of which are religious foundations historically -- have long-standing little scholarships available for the children of parents of various backgrounds, via old-pupil bequests and such

the money involved is mostly pretty limited though, in relation to modern-day fees for such schools (and the child in question will also have to pass the entrance exams same as everyone else, so it's not a stress-free shoo-in necessarily)

https://mobile.twitter.com/1030/status/848953002706829314

^ Hysterical.

further subterranean evidence the snap election was more about panic than planning as two of the top figures in may's communications team (katie perrior and lizzie loudon) quit within three days of one another

She has been so smug and triumphalist in the past week, it is good to see some trouble at t'mill.

They're likely to run a shambolic campaign- May herself is a very awkward performer in the spotlight and won't enjoy the next few weeks at all. But it probly won't make much difference :-(

http://cdn2.theweek.co.uk/sites/theweek/files/2017/02/170216-may_0.jpg

what a natural, Obama crossed with Princess Di right there

She just repeatedly kept using the words leadership + stability mixed with platitude heavy waffle without explicit references to any policies - then that old chestnut "the coalition of chaos". Not very good at this game at all, even a Beeb correspondent admitted earlier that Corbyn has been "energetic" and had another good day.

coalition of chaos coalition of chaos coalition of chaos coalition of chaos coalition of chaos coalition of chaos

Didn't they use that last time as well?

yep.

theres a lovely photo going around of corbyn today reading to kids
he looks very comfy in it

They're likely to run a shambolic campaign- May herself is a very awkward performer in the spotlight and won't enjoy the next few weeks at all. But it probly won't make much difference :-(

Yeah, I don't want to get my hopes up but she's a car crash campigning-wise, this is obviously why they're trying to get this over as quickly as they can, before anyone realizes.

She is dreadful as a public performer.

It's like when Farage tries to 'smile charmingly and optimistically'.

I guess in fairness I would argue the same for May as I do for Corbyn: it's supposed to be about the policies, not congeniality.

of course I know which policies are still far ahead in the polls, or rather the nebulous belief in policies

it seems important to remember that the obvious awfulness we're laughing at is invisible to the Britain's Got Austerity massif

this is the thread for noting instances of that obvious awfulness and incompetence, if only for our own mental health

brexit/weimar -- WHICH NEEDS A NEW THREAD BTW -- is where we note how awful and incompetent everything else is, inc.seamus milne if/wjhen applicable

nah that's fair but it's the hope that kills

we need a Brelection thread but not starting one on this stupid phone

It's like when Farage tries to 'smile charmingly and optimistically'.

Whenever he does this he looks like he's leering at your wife's cleavage.