French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

la loi macron (his signature business-friendly economic policy when he was the business/economy minister) was so politically unpopular with the french socialists they had to use a special procedure to push it through the french legislature

lbi the only person in that article who talks about "anti-semitism" is melenchon himself saying that criticisms of his behavior amount to calling him an anti-semite. i think it's a waste of time personally to prosecute anyone's heart. praising the dignity of protestors who attacked synagogues is enough for me to say that he is not very sympathetic to concerns of the french jewish community and that's sufficient imo.

everything is always unpopular with french socialists.

however, he is supported gay mariage, something Fillion would never ever do (and promised to cancel). Macron is a centrist, if for a bunch of extreme left wing nuts like Jacobin that means being on the right, then so be it.

Melenchon's problem is that he's not a Trotskyite imho. He would've gotten further if he was, instead of this "file under commie" image he loves to feed off of.

and afaict le pen is not an "explicit jew hater" either

Melenchon's stuff with Russia and his past links with Chavez are abhorhent.

Ok Mordy, not intending to change your mind on that. Just saying calling Melenchon an anti-semite, or anti-jew this loosely, is a real, dangerous stretch. But I know I can't compete with the "Jewish Telegraph Agency" with you. And that's ok.

and afaict le pen is not an "explicit jew hater" either

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 4:26 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

did you hear what she said about the Vel d'Hiv?

As per Le Monde (http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2017/04/23/ce-que-propose-emmanuel-macron-dans-son-programme_5115966_4355770.html), Macron promises—

On the economy:

- 60 billion in savings over 5 years
- 120 000 less civil servants
- 50 billion investment (notably 15 for the environment, 5 for healthcare, 5 for agriculture, 5 for public institutions)
- lower social security contributions for employees
- an extra 100 net euros for minimum wage earners who receive the prime d'activité
- 80% will be exempted from the taxe d'habitation (council tax in the UK?)
- you may apply for unemployment benefits even if you resign from your job, as long as you can prove you're actively seeking work

On the EU:

- EU democratic conventions
- a common budget for the EU
- an EU economy and finance minister
- in favour of CETA (free trade agreement with Canada)

On political institutions:

- a law against holding multiple offices
- no more special retirement plan for parliamentarians
- head of state presents his/her results once a year before Congress
- a law preventing elected officials from hiring family members (I wonder why?)
- 1/3 less MP's and senators
- stronger financial penalties against political parties whose candidacies don't respect parity
- use of an emergency procedure in Parliament to accelerate the review of certain bills
- limitation on time writing laws in Parliament, spent evaluating government measures instead

On the environment:

- against endocrine disrupters and pesticides
- renovate 1 million poorly isolated dwellings over 5 years
- turn France into world leader on environmental transition
- 50% organic and/or eco-friendly food in canteens
- further limit vehicle circulation during peak pollution events
- 1000 euro premium if you're buying a new car or a less harmful used car

There's more, of course, but it should give you a more technical idea of what he's aiming for.

yes we discussed it here upthread iirc? denying french culpability in the vichy regime is craven but not the same as hating jews xp

Ok Mordy, not intending to change your mind on that. Just saying calling Melenchon an anti-semite, or anti-jew this loosely, is a real, dangerous stretch. But I know I can't compete with the "Jewish Telegraph Agency" with you. And that's ok.

i think you're ignoring precisely what i wrote but whatever

Because its mostly nonsense.

and afaict le pen is not an "explicit jew hater" either

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 8:26 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Are you serious?!

I do remember you somewhat downplaying her Velodrome d'Hive disaster. That's just one example. I'm not even going to google her hatred towards jews, you will do fine on your own. Damn.

if you can't see why french jews would be concerned about a guy who praised protests that involved attacks on synagogue then one of us is in denial here but it isn't me

In a climate where the far-right are getting votes and feeding off hatred forr immigrants and Muslims. They are the ones getting it in the neck. State of this.

xsp lbi she has real efforts to remove antisemitism from the party and has taken a different line from her father as an intentional move. i think plenty can be said to insinuate that she dislikes jews (including the kind of anti-banker language that melanchon has used) and the party has a history but you need to be rigorous about what she has actually said and done and apply the same standards of other candidates (even if you like their platforms more).

I never thought fuckin BHL would have a way to influence even the jews in Pennsylvania on how to see the french's left, and once again, I'm the first who to dislike Melenchon.

The Mélenchon groupies i know here are active in BDS & the like

i'm pretty sure the actual flesh and blood french jews i know and went to school with have made a bigger impact on my perceptions of melenchon than BHL

Also, some stuff that Le Monde doesn't mention in that article:

- more teachers in 'difficult' neighbourhoods
- opening libraries in the evenings and on Sunday
- more medical services reimbursed by social security (notably glasses and prostheses)
- respecting EU fiscal discipline
- no lifting of sanctions against Russia

if you can't see why french jews would be concerned about a guy who praised protests that involved attacks on synagogue then one of us is in denial here but it isn't me

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 8:32 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I said I did. I said jews have no friends in extreme right, or left in most cases. You probably ignored that at your will. But calling Melenchon an anti-semite is really a bridge too far.

But whatever. You don't seem particularly knowledgeable about France and the elections, not in this thread anyway. Stick to defending Le Pen for her "real efforts to remove antisemitism from the party".. Sad (extremely sad!) lol... Not arguing with you anymore.

no one called him an antisemite! that was what my post above literally says - that i don't care about prosecuting what he feels in his heart!

why do u think marine expelled her dad from the party lbi? i mean read her actions as cynical and full of shit but you can't not acknowledge there's something there

“I want to congratulate the youth of my country who mobilized in defense of the miserable victims of war crimes in Gaza,” Melenchon said in the speech at a general assembly of his Left Party. “They did so with model discipline when they were pushed to extremes on all sides. They knew how to remain dignified and embodied better than anyone the founding values of the French republic.”

The problem is one quote off a website (and I don't know it *shakes fist at the internet*) that might read this quote in a particular way...do we have a French Jewish socialist association's take on this :-)

You, Mordy, trying to see who the real enemy is and coming to the conclusion it is Melenchon (who I don't even care for) instead of proven anti-semite Le Pen is just... I have no words.

oy dude, gafb

why do u think marine expelled her dad from the party lbi? i mean read her actions as cynical and full of shit but you can't not acknowledge there's something there

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 8:39 PM (forty-six seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Why? Politics.

"gafb"?

"politics" - what politics? specifically the kind that tries to expel more radical elements to make their party more palatable to people? like minimizing explicit antisemitism to try and shed that baggage?

gafb gmafb*

Please stop at this point. Thanks:

i mean read her actions as cynical and full of shit but you can't not acknowledge there's something there

Le Pen is a proven anti-semite. Not just her dad, she herself, too. It's one of the things that vexes between Wilders and Le Pen, too. Wilders has the Israeli flag hanging in his parliamentary room (because anti-muslim), Le Pen is trying to shake her own past and that of her dad for electoral gain. It's not complicated.

gmafb*

Yeah still no idea what this means.

Le Pen is a proven anti-semite.

please give me a link that makes this case please bc i've googled it and find a) the "she will strip jews of their israeli citizenship" (in the context of comments about how she wouldn't allow any dual-citizenship) the vichy stuff and lots of links about her father.

"give me a fucking break"

so, yeah wow what happened here

the vichy stuff isn't enough for you?

Mordy, you clearly know nothing about France, French history, French politics, etc.

distinguishing vichy from true "france" has a long tradition going back to de gaulle and while i don't love it i don't think it's the same as being an explicit anti-semite.

fred stfu

And are we seriously discussing Le Pen's anti-semitic credentials? Are we now denying that dog-whistle politics is a real thing and that it's been wreaking havoc all over the world? And that's not even counting the Vichy stuff.

yeah i mean Trump is not explicitly racist/an antisemite in that case.

Trump is much closer to an explicit bigot imo

'Im not an antisemite.' 'It's not a Muslim ban.' Oh, okay.

If you guys believe what youre saying it should be very easy to link me to some convincing remarks

No, you see, Mordy knows better than all the French why Marine Le Pen cleaned up the FN, and it's definitely not just going more into dog-whistling, because of course Mordy also knows best what types of dog-whistles works in France.

Fred otm. Mordy, you are way, way out of your depth here.

I just do not get you. Le Pen is a proven anti-semite. Am not googling for you, do it yourself. Yes, she kicked daddy out, but why oh why? To try and appeal to a broader audience. Mission succeeded, but this does not mean she is not an anti-semite. She is. It's recorded, it's all over. But bonne chance picking your allies!

Mordy, while I live in Canada and am Canadian, but I'm also French and I'm knowledgable of its politics in a way that you don't seem to be (which is fine, can't be an expert on everything etc). I can assure you that Le Pen is casting the same dark arts of non-explicit racism than Trump, you can trust us on that. You can also ask your friends.

If you guys believe what youre saying it should be very easy to link me to some convincing remarks

― Mordy, Sunday, 23 April 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Like you did?

Love Mordy but he's embarrassingly off here. xyzzz otm

Forcing jews to surrender their Israeli citizenship, what do you call that?

I mentioned it above look at the context

do you know the CRIF?