French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

If you guys believe what youre saying it should be very easy to link me to some convincing remarks

No, you see, Mordy knows better than all the French why Marine Le Pen cleaned up the FN, and it's definitely not just going more into dog-whistling, because of course Mordy also knows best what types of dog-whistles works in France.

Fred otm. Mordy, you are way, way out of your depth here.

I just do not get you. Le Pen is a proven anti-semite. Am not googling for you, do it yourself. Yes, she kicked daddy out, but why oh why? To try and appeal to a broader audience. Mission succeeded, but this does not mean she is not an anti-semite. She is. It's recorded, it's all over. But bonne chance picking your allies!

Mordy, while I live in Canada and am Canadian, but I'm also French and I'm knowledgable of its politics in a way that you don't seem to be (which is fine, can't be an expert on everything etc). I can assure you that Le Pen is casting the same dark arts of non-explicit racism than Trump, you can trust us on that. You can also ask your friends.

If you guys believe what youre saying it should be very easy to link me to some convincing remarks

― Mordy, Sunday, 23 April 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Like you did?

Love Mordy but he's embarrassingly off here. xyzzz otm

Forcing jews to surrender their Israeli citizenship, what do you call that?

I mentioned it above look at the context

do you know the CRIF?

afaik they're like a jewish federation i don't know anything more about them.

look guys you can keep repeating that it's a subject upon which i am ignorant however all i asserted is that it seems to me like le pen and melenchon have both said v questionable things and that neither rise to the level of out and out explicit antisemite. you have failed to give me evidence that le pen is more so than melenchon only assertions that you truly know and i don't know. fyi this is normally a giveaway that your interlocutor is substituting appeals to authority for actual arguments. lbi as i said i googled the topic and found nothing dispositive. i want to know more. if i'm talking to a french friend and he says "le pen and melenchon both hate jews" i don't think i can respond with "well actually i heard from some random guys on a message board that le pen is much more antisemitic"

it's nagl when someone says "show me how what you're saying is true bc i'm ignorant and don't know" and you think the answer is "no you're ignorant and don't know"

frankly that fred agrees with you all should send up some huge warning signs

She is probably a bigger islamophobe than she is an anti-semite. And that seems to be good enough for some, like this quote from jpost: "“I believe that since Marine Le Pen succeeded her father, it is wrong to consider the National Front as an anti-Semitic party. And it is even more wrong to single out FN as the main foe when real criminal anti-Semitism comes from the Islamists and the ultra-left who back them,”"

http://www.jpost.com/Jerusalem-Report/French-Jewish-dilemma-449489

... nullifying whatever "random guys on message boards" here say. find your own truths, trust your friend, and don't believe us. i don't care. but shame this election thread turned into this because of your twist. needn't be.

xxp

D-O-G-W-H-I-S-T-L-I-N-G

She surrounds herself with notorious antisemites and gestures towards antisemitism in both subtle and not-so-subtle ways, all the while presenting herself as utterly beyond reproach. The Vél d'Hiv statement is a perfectly calculated example of this, as it allows her to snatch some extra votes while claiming opposition to fascism (an utterly foreign, unassimilable phenomenon, obviously). It's alt-right cynicism at its 'best,' and it's working since she fucking made it to the run off. What more do you need?

honestly i'd like to know about some of these notorious antisemites she surrounds herself with. you think i have some kind of agenda but i really just want a fuller picture so i wouldn't mind some names.

OTM. Wish Mordy would get this...

xp Sigh..

lbi you have contributed nothing of substance. if you have nothing please simmer down and let ppl who apparently know something about this topic explain it.

You are plain trolling at his point Mordy. And I do not for the life of me understand why.

like you don't realize how bad it makes you look when you refuse to discuss something in good faith. it doesn't make you look like you know what you're talking about.

Frédéric Chatillon. And, um, her dad until it became politically expedient for her to cut ties.

Lol. I don't think anyone here thinks LBI is the one that looks bad.

Yeah ok, I'll "simmer down"... And leave this the FRENCH ELECTIONS to people who "know something about this topic"... lol.

Mordy is way out of his depth here. Heart the dude but he's just stretching it way, wayyyyy too much here. I recommend humble pie.

FB named Frédéric Chatillon. Add to that Axel Loustau and Philippe Péninque.

ty

however, he is supported gay mariage, something Fillion would never ever do (and promised to cancel). Macron is a centrist, if for a bunch of extreme left wing nuts like Jacobin that means being on the right, then so be it.

It's kind of wild that this is still a dividing issue in French mainstream politics - most western right wing governments I know of have accepted gay marriage and some introduced it (Cameron for one).

afaik they're like a jewish federation i don't know anything more about them.
― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:05 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

they'll be better than us for explaining why Le Pen is an anti-semite. you should hear them out.

and not recognizing that France is responsible for their part in the Shoah is the condition sina que non for anti-semitism in France. I don't know how else to explain it. It seems very obvious to me.

Vichy was a very french thing, and denying it is one very step close to Holocaust denial.

fwiw most federations worldwide are very vigilant about antisemitism and CRIF appears to be no different - in fact i'm not sure who you want to make your point being as how they have criticized melenchon as being the same as le pen

http://www.rtl.fr/actu/societe-faits-divers/melenchon-et-le-pen-vehiculent-la-haine-estime-le-president-du-crif-7787361583

i think that denying a nation's culpability in the holocaust is antisemitic but also very very common and i think it should be distinguished from empathizing with the vichy gov itself, or the nazis. denying culpability sucks but isn't actively hostile.

i think that denying a nation's culpability in the holocaust is antisemitic

i should probably clarify that i have complications feelings about this actually - i think nations should endeavor to accept their culpability in the holocaust. i think that shame or guilt and denial to which i believe they are linked are not the same thing as hate though.

Well lots of french jews see it as hate and I don't blame them.

especially when culturally that's how the french jews made peace living in France after the events.

yeah but Mordy I can read that article and see that the CRIF guy is saying they disinvited Le Pen because the FN is the Hate Jews party (and always has been) and disinvited Melenchon because the PG and PCF really really don't like Israel. You are conflating (as you often do) two flavors of anti-semitism that I think are really very different, one of which is about being suspicious and hateful towards Jews in your neighborhood or your country as well as around the world, and another which is focused on the politics of Israel. One can flow into the other and vice versa but they aren't identical to most people.

The fact that Le Pen is leader of the FN pretty much does it for me, even cursory googling is enough to realize that even though she beat out the bigger antisemite (gollnisch) for the leadership, she's still FN, is a product of the FN, and while savvy enough to realize you shouldn't say things that got bruno & her dad in legal trouble, she has shown no interest in steering that ship in any actually more moderate directions, not in any meaningful way

thanks everybody for making me learn french acronyms on my Sunday afternoon
felt more productive than the british porn star I learned about this morning

You do not seem to even grasp the recent Vel d’Hiv's significance, like at all, Mordy. Good job hijacking the French election thread, but in fairness this is all bogus and you are our of your depth.

xp Tombot otm.

tombot although it has to do with israel don't u think that praising the conduct of protests that targeted local jews and local jewish institutions collapses those two flavors entirely? attacking a french synagogue because you're angry at israel surely crosses any lines that might disambiguate the two.

god lbi you are so fucking tedious. why don't you explain to me how i misunderstand the vichy remarks. am i wrong that distancing france from vichy is different from explicitly empathizing with vichy?

am i wrong that distancing france from vichy is different from explicitly empathizing with vichy?

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:51 PM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes. that's what we are all arguing.

an analogy could be made with slavery in the southern US.

To be fair, I've no doubt that islamophobia will be a far more glaring issue throughout the next two weeks. 'Subtle' antisemitic cues were just the appetizer.

Not that I'm defending Mordy here. VHS's analogy with slavery in the US is dead on.

xp

no it couldn't. it would be the difference between saying that the confederacy didn't represent the true south and that the confederacy really wasn't so bad. you want the south to take responsibility for the confederacy but you understand that trying to position yourself as distinct from some reprehensible thing is not about hate but denial. but it's even more complex in france's case since they actually were invaded by a hostile country and then a lot of ppl collaborated and some didn't. this was explicitly de gaulle's argument -that the "true" french government was out of power.

Mordy yes in that instance, in such an event, they are indistinguishable, but that convergence is not frequently duplicated and the history and origins are important. That's what everyone is so upset with you about!

Good fucking lord. I'm not tedious, Mordy. You are the one marching in here declaring Melenchon is an anti-semite because you read it at some stupid biased website (he's not), consequently half defending Le Pen saying you can't google her bloody anti-semitism and believing she really made an effort changing her ways and ditching poisonous parts of her party (as if...)... Who's tedious here? Merde.

that's the important bit tho. what motivates someone to say vichy didn't represent "true france"? it's a feeling that what they did didn't represent your true values. it would be like an american saying trump doesn't truly represent america -- they are talking about what they consider to be the "truth" of a country and in the case of vichy there's a much better argument that it didn't represent france than that trump doesn't represent america.

ok lbi thank you for your many contributions you have truly impressed me with your erudition and comprehension

Lordy, just stop yourself. You're telling the French whether or not Vichy really represents a 'true' part of their history...

I feel like I'm on reddit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

i agree that it's fallacious but i am parsing motivation. does someone say that vichy was a disgusting regime that doesn't represent true france because they hate jews??? why do they hate vichy so much why do they want to distance themselves from french collaboration??? it's ignorant and dumb but it's not hateful. imo.