French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

She is probably a bigger islamophobe than she is an anti-semite. And that seems to be good enough for some, like this quote from jpost: "“I believe that since Marine Le Pen succeeded her father, it is wrong to consider the National Front as an anti-Semitic party. And it is even more wrong to single out FN as the main foe when real criminal anti-Semitism comes from the Islamists and the ultra-left who back them,”"

http://www.jpost.com/Jerusalem-Report/French-Jewish-dilemma-449489

... nullifying whatever "random guys on message boards" here say. find your own truths, trust your friend, and don't believe us. i don't care. but shame this election thread turned into this because of your twist. needn't be.

xxp

D-O-G-W-H-I-S-T-L-I-N-G

She surrounds herself with notorious antisemites and gestures towards antisemitism in both subtle and not-so-subtle ways, all the while presenting herself as utterly beyond reproach. The Vél d'Hiv statement is a perfectly calculated example of this, as it allows her to snatch some extra votes while claiming opposition to fascism (an utterly foreign, unassimilable phenomenon, obviously). It's alt-right cynicism at its 'best,' and it's working since she fucking made it to the run off. What more do you need?

honestly i'd like to know about some of these notorious antisemites she surrounds herself with. you think i have some kind of agenda but i really just want a fuller picture so i wouldn't mind some names.

OTM. Wish Mordy would get this...

xp Sigh..

lbi you have contributed nothing of substance. if you have nothing please simmer down and let ppl who apparently know something about this topic explain it.

You are plain trolling at his point Mordy. And I do not for the life of me understand why.

like you don't realize how bad it makes you look when you refuse to discuss something in good faith. it doesn't make you look like you know what you're talking about.

Frédéric Chatillon. And, um, her dad until it became politically expedient for her to cut ties.

Lol. I don't think anyone here thinks LBI is the one that looks bad.

Yeah ok, I'll "simmer down"... And leave this the FRENCH ELECTIONS to people who "know something about this topic"... lol.

Mordy is way out of his depth here. Heart the dude but he's just stretching it way, wayyyyy too much here. I recommend humble pie.

FB named Frédéric Chatillon. Add to that Axel Loustau and Philippe Péninque.

ty

however, he is supported gay mariage, something Fillion would never ever do (and promised to cancel). Macron is a centrist, if for a bunch of extreme left wing nuts like Jacobin that means being on the right, then so be it.

It's kind of wild that this is still a dividing issue in French mainstream politics - most western right wing governments I know of have accepted gay marriage and some introduced it (Cameron for one).

afaik they're like a jewish federation i don't know anything more about them.
― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:05 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

they'll be better than us for explaining why Le Pen is an anti-semite. you should hear them out.

and not recognizing that France is responsible for their part in the Shoah is the condition sina que non for anti-semitism in France. I don't know how else to explain it. It seems very obvious to me.

Vichy was a very french thing, and denying it is one very step close to Holocaust denial.

fwiw most federations worldwide are very vigilant about antisemitism and CRIF appears to be no different - in fact i'm not sure who you want to make your point being as how they have criticized melenchon as being the same as le pen

http://www.rtl.fr/actu/societe-faits-divers/melenchon-et-le-pen-vehiculent-la-haine-estime-le-president-du-crif-7787361583

i think that denying a nation's culpability in the holocaust is antisemitic but also very very common and i think it should be distinguished from empathizing with the vichy gov itself, or the nazis. denying culpability sucks but isn't actively hostile.

i think that denying a nation's culpability in the holocaust is antisemitic

i should probably clarify that i have complications feelings about this actually - i think nations should endeavor to accept their culpability in the holocaust. i think that shame or guilt and denial to which i believe they are linked are not the same thing as hate though.

Well lots of french jews see it as hate and I don't blame them.

especially when culturally that's how the french jews made peace living in France after the events.

yeah but Mordy I can read that article and see that the CRIF guy is saying they disinvited Le Pen because the FN is the Hate Jews party (and always has been) and disinvited Melenchon because the PG and PCF really really don't like Israel. You are conflating (as you often do) two flavors of anti-semitism that I think are really very different, one of which is about being suspicious and hateful towards Jews in your neighborhood or your country as well as around the world, and another which is focused on the politics of Israel. One can flow into the other and vice versa but they aren't identical to most people.

The fact that Le Pen is leader of the FN pretty much does it for me, even cursory googling is enough to realize that even though she beat out the bigger antisemite (gollnisch) for the leadership, she's still FN, is a product of the FN, and while savvy enough to realize you shouldn't say things that got bruno & her dad in legal trouble, she has shown no interest in steering that ship in any actually more moderate directions, not in any meaningful way

thanks everybody for making me learn french acronyms on my Sunday afternoon
felt more productive than the british porn star I learned about this morning

You do not seem to even grasp the recent Vel d’Hiv's significance, like at all, Mordy. Good job hijacking the French election thread, but in fairness this is all bogus and you are our of your depth.

xp Tombot otm.

tombot although it has to do with israel don't u think that praising the conduct of protests that targeted local jews and local jewish institutions collapses those two flavors entirely? attacking a french synagogue because you're angry at israel surely crosses any lines that might disambiguate the two.

god lbi you are so fucking tedious. why don't you explain to me how i misunderstand the vichy remarks. am i wrong that distancing france from vichy is different from explicitly empathizing with vichy?

am i wrong that distancing france from vichy is different from explicitly empathizing with vichy?

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:51 PM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes. that's what we are all arguing.

an analogy could be made with slavery in the southern US.

To be fair, I've no doubt that islamophobia will be a far more glaring issue throughout the next two weeks. 'Subtle' antisemitic cues were just the appetizer.

Not that I'm defending Mordy here. VHS's analogy with slavery in the US is dead on.

xp

no it couldn't. it would be the difference between saying that the confederacy didn't represent the true south and that the confederacy really wasn't so bad. you want the south to take responsibility for the confederacy but you understand that trying to position yourself as distinct from some reprehensible thing is not about hate but denial. but it's even more complex in france's case since they actually were invaded by a hostile country and then a lot of ppl collaborated and some didn't. this was explicitly de gaulle's argument -that the "true" french government was out of power.

Mordy yes in that instance, in such an event, they are indistinguishable, but that convergence is not frequently duplicated and the history and origins are important. That's what everyone is so upset with you about!

Good fucking lord. I'm not tedious, Mordy. You are the one marching in here declaring Melenchon is an anti-semite because you read it at some stupid biased website (he's not), consequently half defending Le Pen saying you can't google her bloody anti-semitism and believing she really made an effort changing her ways and ditching poisonous parts of her party (as if...)... Who's tedious here? Merde.

that's the important bit tho. what motivates someone to say vichy didn't represent "true france"? it's a feeling that what they did didn't represent your true values. it would be like an american saying trump doesn't truly represent america -- they are talking about what they consider to be the "truth" of a country and in the case of vichy there's a much better argument that it didn't represent france than that trump doesn't represent america.

ok lbi thank you for your many contributions you have truly impressed me with your erudition and comprehension

Lordy, just stop yourself. You're telling the French whether or not Vichy really represents a 'true' part of their history...

I feel like I'm on reddit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

i agree that it's fallacious but i am parsing motivation. does someone say that vichy was a disgusting regime that doesn't represent true france because they hate jews??? why do they hate vichy so much why do they want to distance themselves from french collaboration??? it's ignorant and dumb but it's not hateful. imo.

Le Bateau Ivre, xyzzz__, & Van Horn Street OTMFM itt.

From Jacques Chirac's apology in 95:

"These black hours will stain our history for ever and are an injury to our past and our traditions. Yes, the criminal madness of the occupant was assisted ('secondée') by the French, by the French state. Fifty-three years ago, on 16 July 1942, 4500 policemen and gendarmes, French, under the authority of their leaders, obeyed the demands of the Nazis. That day, in the capital and the Paris region, nearly 10,000 Jewish men, women and children were arrested at home, in the early hours of the morning, and assembled at police stations... France, home of the Enlightenment and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, land of welcome and asylum, France committed that day the irreparable. Breaking its word, it delivered those it protected to their executioners."

i agree 100% with chirac

well if you consider that Vichy wasn't a true part of what France is today and was then, you are either wilfully blind or seeking some sort of absolution. In both cases, it's an act of anti-semitism imo. It's probably there that we don't agree: what constitutes anti-semitism. However, I would like you to entertain the idea that these definitions are not the same in France than in the US and the french jews might be qualified enough to decide what constitutes anti-semitism for them. In this case, they do.

i assume that extends to qualifying french jews to render judgement on politicians you may like as well

I dislike Mélenchon, like, really hard.

Speaking of which, he hasn't called on his voters to pick Macron over Le Pen. That's fucking irresponsible if you ask me.

Drinking the kool-aid till the very last minute that they might beat Le Pen is probably why. Irresponsible indeed.

Full disclosure Mordy: I wasn't aware of Melenchon's story with the Israel positions and the danger it constituted for the community. It might change my opinion stated upthread.

Is it not customary to save those types of speeches until tomorrow?

In 2002, when JMLP got second place, I remember those types of speeches were given on the same night and by pretty much everyone excluded Le Front except that one person whose name I can't remember at the moment.

Is it not customary to save those types of speeches until tomorrow?

― El Tomboto

Hamon and Fillon already asked their voters to go with Macron.