French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

however, he is supported gay mariage, something Fillion would never ever do (and promised to cancel). Macron is a centrist, if for a bunch of extreme left wing nuts like Jacobin that means being on the right, then so be it.

It's kind of wild that this is still a dividing issue in French mainstream politics - most western right wing governments I know of have accepted gay marriage and some introduced it (Cameron for one).

afaik they're like a jewish federation i don't know anything more about them.
― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:05 PM (twenty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

they'll be better than us for explaining why Le Pen is an anti-semite. you should hear them out.

and not recognizing that France is responsible for their part in the Shoah is the condition sina que non for anti-semitism in France. I don't know how else to explain it. It seems very obvious to me.

Vichy was a very french thing, and denying it is one very step close to Holocaust denial.

fwiw most federations worldwide are very vigilant about antisemitism and CRIF appears to be no different - in fact i'm not sure who you want to make your point being as how they have criticized melenchon as being the same as le pen

http://www.rtl.fr/actu/societe-faits-divers/melenchon-et-le-pen-vehiculent-la-haine-estime-le-president-du-crif-7787361583

i think that denying a nation's culpability in the holocaust is antisemitic but also very very common and i think it should be distinguished from empathizing with the vichy gov itself, or the nazis. denying culpability sucks but isn't actively hostile.

i think that denying a nation's culpability in the holocaust is antisemitic

i should probably clarify that i have complications feelings about this actually - i think nations should endeavor to accept their culpability in the holocaust. i think that shame or guilt and denial to which i believe they are linked are not the same thing as hate though.

Well lots of french jews see it as hate and I don't blame them.

especially when culturally that's how the french jews made peace living in France after the events.

yeah but Mordy I can read that article and see that the CRIF guy is saying they disinvited Le Pen because the FN is the Hate Jews party (and always has been) and disinvited Melenchon because the PG and PCF really really don't like Israel. You are conflating (as you often do) two flavors of anti-semitism that I think are really very different, one of which is about being suspicious and hateful towards Jews in your neighborhood or your country as well as around the world, and another which is focused on the politics of Israel. One can flow into the other and vice versa but they aren't identical to most people.

The fact that Le Pen is leader of the FN pretty much does it for me, even cursory googling is enough to realize that even though she beat out the bigger antisemite (gollnisch) for the leadership, she's still FN, is a product of the FN, and while savvy enough to realize you shouldn't say things that got bruno & her dad in legal trouble, she has shown no interest in steering that ship in any actually more moderate directions, not in any meaningful way

thanks everybody for making me learn french acronyms on my Sunday afternoon
felt more productive than the british porn star I learned about this morning

You do not seem to even grasp the recent Vel d’Hiv's significance, like at all, Mordy. Good job hijacking the French election thread, but in fairness this is all bogus and you are our of your depth.

xp Tombot otm.

tombot although it has to do with israel don't u think that praising the conduct of protests that targeted local jews and local jewish institutions collapses those two flavors entirely? attacking a french synagogue because you're angry at israel surely crosses any lines that might disambiguate the two.

god lbi you are so fucking tedious. why don't you explain to me how i misunderstand the vichy remarks. am i wrong that distancing france from vichy is different from explicitly empathizing with vichy?

am i wrong that distancing france from vichy is different from explicitly empathizing with vichy?

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:51 PM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes. that's what we are all arguing.

an analogy could be made with slavery in the southern US.

To be fair, I've no doubt that islamophobia will be a far more glaring issue throughout the next two weeks. 'Subtle' antisemitic cues were just the appetizer.

Not that I'm defending Mordy here. VHS's analogy with slavery in the US is dead on.

xp

no it couldn't. it would be the difference between saying that the confederacy didn't represent the true south and that the confederacy really wasn't so bad. you want the south to take responsibility for the confederacy but you understand that trying to position yourself as distinct from some reprehensible thing is not about hate but denial. but it's even more complex in france's case since they actually were invaded by a hostile country and then a lot of ppl collaborated and some didn't. this was explicitly de gaulle's argument -that the "true" french government was out of power.

Mordy yes in that instance, in such an event, they are indistinguishable, but that convergence is not frequently duplicated and the history and origins are important. That's what everyone is so upset with you about!

Good fucking lord. I'm not tedious, Mordy. You are the one marching in here declaring Melenchon is an anti-semite because you read it at some stupid biased website (he's not), consequently half defending Le Pen saying you can't google her bloody anti-semitism and believing she really made an effort changing her ways and ditching poisonous parts of her party (as if...)... Who's tedious here? Merde.

that's the important bit tho. what motivates someone to say vichy didn't represent "true france"? it's a feeling that what they did didn't represent your true values. it would be like an american saying trump doesn't truly represent america -- they are talking about what they consider to be the "truth" of a country and in the case of vichy there's a much better argument that it didn't represent france than that trump doesn't represent america.

ok lbi thank you for your many contributions you have truly impressed me with your erudition and comprehension

Lordy, just stop yourself. You're telling the French whether or not Vichy really represents a 'true' part of their history...

I feel like I'm on reddit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

i agree that it's fallacious but i am parsing motivation. does someone say that vichy was a disgusting regime that doesn't represent true france because they hate jews??? why do they hate vichy so much why do they want to distance themselves from french collaboration??? it's ignorant and dumb but it's not hateful. imo.

Le Bateau Ivre, xyzzz__, & Van Horn Street OTMFM itt.

From Jacques Chirac's apology in 95:

"These black hours will stain our history for ever and are an injury to our past and our traditions. Yes, the criminal madness of the occupant was assisted ('secondée') by the French, by the French state. Fifty-three years ago, on 16 July 1942, 4500 policemen and gendarmes, French, under the authority of their leaders, obeyed the demands of the Nazis. That day, in the capital and the Paris region, nearly 10,000 Jewish men, women and children were arrested at home, in the early hours of the morning, and assembled at police stations... France, home of the Enlightenment and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, land of welcome and asylum, France committed that day the irreparable. Breaking its word, it delivered those it protected to their executioners."

i agree 100% with chirac

well if you consider that Vichy wasn't a true part of what France is today and was then, you are either wilfully blind or seeking some sort of absolution. In both cases, it's an act of anti-semitism imo. It's probably there that we don't agree: what constitutes anti-semitism. However, I would like you to entertain the idea that these definitions are not the same in France than in the US and the french jews might be qualified enough to decide what constitutes anti-semitism for them. In this case, they do.

i assume that extends to qualifying french jews to render judgement on politicians you may like as well

I dislike Mélenchon, like, really hard.

Speaking of which, he hasn't called on his voters to pick Macron over Le Pen. That's fucking irresponsible if you ask me.

Drinking the kool-aid till the very last minute that they might beat Le Pen is probably why. Irresponsible indeed.

Full disclosure Mordy: I wasn't aware of Melenchon's story with the Israel positions and the danger it constituted for the community. It might change my opinion stated upthread.

Is it not customary to save those types of speeches until tomorrow?

In 2002, when JMLP got second place, I remember those types of speeches were given on the same night and by pretty much everyone excluded Le Front except that one person whose name I can't remember at the moment.

Is it not customary to save those types of speeches until tomorrow?

― El Tomboto

Hamon and Fillon already asked their voters to go with Macron.

anyone outside of France had to vote?

apparently it took 3 hours in Tokyo.

ok lbi thank you for your many contributions you have truly impressed me with your erudition and comprehension

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 9:58 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Lol yeah ok. You barged in and wanted to make this about anti-semitism, and in the act managed to DEFEND Le Pen. No small feat - she remains a rabid anti-semite - except you don't want to see it that way and prefer to see others more dangerous to jews, for some reason. You do not understand French politics, that much is clear. And you say you want to learn, but really you don't, you want your biases to be confirmed.

France definitely has an anti-semitism problem, like all of Western Europe, but not nearly as big, nor as pressing as you make it out to be. France has a problem with both jews and muslims, sadly, and that is what is in dire need of a solution. But saying Melenchon is an anti-semite, like you did (based on some dumbass internet shit link), does not exaxctly help the cause. Nor does it get you anywhere nearer to the truth of the matter of France and why the country voted the way it did.

Your view is just so one-sided and stupid. But by all means, be stubborn, be a know it all.

from what i read -- but possibly misread, my french is weak -- melenchon isn't conceding on the vote projection, he's waiting for the actual votes in the cities to come in

1.5 hours according to the French Embassy in London.

Mélenchon lost and he knows it: http://elections.interieur.gouv.fr/presidentielle-2017/FE.html

I'd love to point out that Macron (considered on the right by many people) is the only candidate to have expressed hostility towards the french colonial past, and that he has been bashed by both the left and the right on this subject. This is an example of how France's views of race relations is still very very unhealthy and is good snapshot of where France stands politically when it comes to general progressive views.

anyone outside of France had to vote?

apparently it took 3 hours in Tokyo.

― Van Horn Street, Monday, 24 April 2017 08:27 (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

3hrs in Melbourne according to a french mate

anyone outside of France had to vote?

apparently it took 3 hours in Tokyo.

Wait what? How does French absentee voting work?

took my family and I a good 2h 20 minutes, I really hope they will correct in two weeks.

Mélenchon has slipped to 4th with 91/107 departements in. 3.2% gap between Le Pen and Fillon, so the top two seems confirmed.

Wait what? How does French absentee voting work?

― El Tomboto, Monday, 24 April 2017 08:46 (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

have to vote in person, I think. On the plus side overseas citizens get their own members of parliament. The representative for Australia covers every french person from the pacific islands to the finnish border.

There is postal voting for the parliamentary elections but not for presidential for some reason

Global Comfort Foods: Another innocent smoothies twat-trick. amirite?

I was sceptical about the JTA article too but Mélenchon's actual speech is here (h/t Mordy): https://www.youtube.com/embed/GZYM5fpsNL4

Saying "Ils l'ont fait avec une discipline parfaite" a month after the riots does seem hard to defend.

Oh whoops, could a mod remove the automatic video please?