French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

am i wrong that distancing france from vichy is different from explicitly empathizing with vichy?

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:51 PM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes. that's what we are all arguing.

an analogy could be made with slavery in the southern US.

To be fair, I've no doubt that islamophobia will be a far more glaring issue throughout the next two weeks. 'Subtle' antisemitic cues were just the appetizer.

Not that I'm defending Mordy here. VHS's analogy with slavery in the US is dead on.

xp

no it couldn't. it would be the difference between saying that the confederacy didn't represent the true south and that the confederacy really wasn't so bad. you want the south to take responsibility for the confederacy but you understand that trying to position yourself as distinct from some reprehensible thing is not about hate but denial. but it's even more complex in france's case since they actually were invaded by a hostile country and then a lot of ppl collaborated and some didn't. this was explicitly de gaulle's argument -that the "true" french government was out of power.

Mordy yes in that instance, in such an event, they are indistinguishable, but that convergence is not frequently duplicated and the history and origins are important. That's what everyone is so upset with you about!

Good fucking lord. I'm not tedious, Mordy. You are the one marching in here declaring Melenchon is an anti-semite because you read it at some stupid biased website (he's not), consequently half defending Le Pen saying you can't google her bloody anti-semitism and believing she really made an effort changing her ways and ditching poisonous parts of her party (as if...)... Who's tedious here? Merde.

that's the important bit tho. what motivates someone to say vichy didn't represent "true france"? it's a feeling that what they did didn't represent your true values. it would be like an american saying trump doesn't truly represent america -- they are talking about what they consider to be the "truth" of a country and in the case of vichy there's a much better argument that it didn't represent france than that trump doesn't represent america.

ok lbi thank you for your many contributions you have truly impressed me with your erudition and comprehension

Lordy, just stop yourself. You're telling the French whether or not Vichy really represents a 'true' part of their history...

I feel like I'm on reddit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

i agree that it's fallacious but i am parsing motivation. does someone say that vichy was a disgusting regime that doesn't represent true france because they hate jews??? why do they hate vichy so much why do they want to distance themselves from french collaboration??? it's ignorant and dumb but it's not hateful. imo.

Le Bateau Ivre, xyzzz__, & Van Horn Street OTMFM itt.

From Jacques Chirac's apology in 95:

"These black hours will stain our history for ever and are an injury to our past and our traditions. Yes, the criminal madness of the occupant was assisted ('secondée') by the French, by the French state. Fifty-three years ago, on 16 July 1942, 4500 policemen and gendarmes, French, under the authority of their leaders, obeyed the demands of the Nazis. That day, in the capital and the Paris region, nearly 10,000 Jewish men, women and children were arrested at home, in the early hours of the morning, and assembled at police stations... France, home of the Enlightenment and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, land of welcome and asylum, France committed that day the irreparable. Breaking its word, it delivered those it protected to their executioners."

i agree 100% with chirac

well if you consider that Vichy wasn't a true part of what France is today and was then, you are either wilfully blind or seeking some sort of absolution. In both cases, it's an act of anti-semitism imo. It's probably there that we don't agree: what constitutes anti-semitism. However, I would like you to entertain the idea that these definitions are not the same in France than in the US and the french jews might be qualified enough to decide what constitutes anti-semitism for them. In this case, they do.

i assume that extends to qualifying french jews to render judgement on politicians you may like as well

I dislike Mélenchon, like, really hard.

Speaking of which, he hasn't called on his voters to pick Macron over Le Pen. That's fucking irresponsible if you ask me.

Drinking the kool-aid till the very last minute that they might beat Le Pen is probably why. Irresponsible indeed.

Full disclosure Mordy: I wasn't aware of Melenchon's story with the Israel positions and the danger it constituted for the community. It might change my opinion stated upthread.

Is it not customary to save those types of speeches until tomorrow?

In 2002, when JMLP got second place, I remember those types of speeches were given on the same night and by pretty much everyone excluded Le Front except that one person whose name I can't remember at the moment.

Is it not customary to save those types of speeches until tomorrow?

― El Tomboto

Hamon and Fillon already asked their voters to go with Macron.

anyone outside of France had to vote?

apparently it took 3 hours in Tokyo.

ok lbi thank you for your many contributions you have truly impressed me with your erudition and comprehension

― Mordy, Sunday, April 23, 2017 9:58 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Lol yeah ok. You barged in and wanted to make this about anti-semitism, and in the act managed to DEFEND Le Pen. No small feat - she remains a rabid anti-semite - except you don't want to see it that way and prefer to see others more dangerous to jews, for some reason. You do not understand French politics, that much is clear. And you say you want to learn, but really you don't, you want your biases to be confirmed.

France definitely has an anti-semitism problem, like all of Western Europe, but not nearly as big, nor as pressing as you make it out to be. France has a problem with both jews and muslims, sadly, and that is what is in dire need of a solution. But saying Melenchon is an anti-semite, like you did (based on some dumbass internet shit link), does not exaxctly help the cause. Nor does it get you anywhere nearer to the truth of the matter of France and why the country voted the way it did.

Your view is just so one-sided and stupid. But by all means, be stubborn, be a know it all.

from what i read -- but possibly misread, my french is weak -- melenchon isn't conceding on the vote projection, he's waiting for the actual votes in the cities to come in

1.5 hours according to the French Embassy in London.

Mélenchon lost and he knows it: http://elections.interieur.gouv.fr/presidentielle-2017/FE.html

I'd love to point out that Macron (considered on the right by many people) is the only candidate to have expressed hostility towards the french colonial past, and that he has been bashed by both the left and the right on this subject. This is an example of how France's views of race relations is still very very unhealthy and is good snapshot of where France stands politically when it comes to general progressive views.

anyone outside of France had to vote?

apparently it took 3 hours in Tokyo.

― Van Horn Street, Monday, 24 April 2017 08:27 (thirteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

3hrs in Melbourne according to a french mate

anyone outside of France had to vote?

apparently it took 3 hours in Tokyo.

Wait what? How does French absentee voting work?

took my family and I a good 2h 20 minutes, I really hope they will correct in two weeks.

Mélenchon has slipped to 4th with 91/107 departements in. 3.2% gap between Le Pen and Fillon, so the top two seems confirmed.

Wait what? How does French absentee voting work?

― El Tomboto, Monday, 24 April 2017 08:46 (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

have to vote in person, I think. On the plus side overseas citizens get their own members of parliament. The representative for Australia covers every french person from the pacific islands to the finnish border.

There is postal voting for the parliamentary elections but not for presidential for some reason

Global Comfort Foods: Another innocent smoothies twat-trick. amirite?

I was sceptical about the JTA article too but Mélenchon's actual speech is here (h/t Mordy): https://www.youtube.com/embed/GZYM5fpsNL4

Saying "Ils l'ont fait avec une discipline parfaite" a month after the riots does seem hard to defend.

Oh whoops, could a mod remove the automatic video please?

If anyone, like me. is just now reading up on this stuff, here's a recent NY Times piece on the checkered past of some of Le Pen's inner circle, in terms of Nazi sympathies:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/13/world/europe/marine-le-pen-national-front-party.html

If you're after explicit anti-semitism from Marine Le Pen what about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvL5QF-AnNg

She's asked why she gets a hard time from a certain journalist. She replies that it's because said journalist is married to the director of Publicis. Director is Jewish, Publicis was founded by a Jew who was stripped of his company during the occupation. In the clip Marine Le Pen says" "These people eat together, were brought up together, send their kids to the same school, and have monopolised power by taking it away from the French people". Interviewer starts to utter the work 'antisemitism' before stopping himself.

"denying a nation's culpability in the holocaust is antisemitic but also very very common"

Is it? common among whom?

common among whom?

"Common" is a very slippery standard to prove, but if I were looking for such deniers I'd look first among the citizens of the nation in question. Denying the (proved) culpability of a nation where one isn't a citizen seems like much more of a rarity.

Good to know

What I meant was, dismissing Le Pen's Vichy stance with "everyone does it" seems crazy, bcz i really don't think it is common among Western European politicians to deny their nations' roles in the holocaust

Guess Berlusconi did it, but he is also a massive racist

Did we get this sorted

The Vichy is a long standing French debate. Until 95, the official State line was indeed that Vichy was an illegal occupation body and therefore none of its actions would be recognised as part of French history. Thank God Chircas (one of his main accomplishments) finally dismissed this fallacy.

Sorry should have also specified that it's De Gaulle himself that started this - during and after the war he dismissed the notion that France would ever recognise or be held accountable of Vichy history.

Funny to see how all of a sudden the Le Pens, anti-Gaullist / French Algeria hardliners for most of their history, hide behind De Gaulle. Obviously, FN is filled with antisemites so Vel d'Hiv clearly meant to be a party base-pleaser (although I think MLP herself is fundamentally more of a Wilders type of islamophobe)

marine le pen stepping down as FN leader

in the US I think we call that "a pivot to the center"