French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

"denying a nation's culpability in the holocaust is antisemitic but also very very common"

Is it? common among whom?

common among whom?

"Common" is a very slippery standard to prove, but if I were looking for such deniers I'd look first among the citizens of the nation in question. Denying the (proved) culpability of a nation where one isn't a citizen seems like much more of a rarity.

Good to know

What I meant was, dismissing Le Pen's Vichy stance with "everyone does it" seems crazy, bcz i really don't think it is common among Western European politicians to deny their nations' roles in the holocaust

Guess Berlusconi did it, but he is also a massive racist

Did we get this sorted

The Vichy is a long standing French debate. Until 95, the official State line was indeed that Vichy was an illegal occupation body and therefore none of its actions would be recognised as part of French history. Thank God Chircas (one of his main accomplishments) finally dismissed this fallacy.

Sorry should have also specified that it's De Gaulle himself that started this - during and after the war he dismissed the notion that France would ever recognise or be held accountable of Vichy history.

Funny to see how all of a sudden the Le Pens, anti-Gaullist / French Algeria hardliners for most of their history, hide behind De Gaulle. Obviously, FN is filled with antisemites so Vel d'Hiv clearly meant to be a party base-pleaser (although I think MLP herself is fundamentally more of a Wilders type of islamophobe)

marine le pen stepping down as FN leader

in the US I think we call that "a pivot to the center"

playing her cards well

Yep. She'll be running as an independent candidate now.

is there really anyone in France who doesn't know she's the head of the FN

Wow. How is that playing?

Yeah my first thought was "are there that many people that find the name 'Front National' toxic and offputting, but not the name 'Le Pen'?" But I know nothing about French politics really. Also: is this like Trump, where the populist/xenophobe base is primed to read any signals of pivoting with a wink, as in "oh, she has to say that to win over the larger electorates, but we know where she really stands" etc.? Or will shedding her party actually lose some votes?

Just as an outsider this seems desperate, and something that could majorly backfire and end the competition right here and now. But I of course don't know if it makes sense in context. But wow.

This is astounding!

The message she hopes she is sending is probably: Marine Le Pen is something larger than the FN.

with the other parties all lined up behind Macron this makes it v much a "her against the establishment" thing, with her banking on a combination of cult-of-personality and reactionary anti-establishment sentiment to propel her to victory. Seems unlikely but idk.

Yep. From her pov it's a smart move, and nothing to sneeze at. People might have not wanted to vote for her because of FN. this is a desperate (because she's not the fave) but very clever move to unshackle herself from FN and all the bad connotations associated with the party. You'd think people would see through this move, but, it might win her votes.

i'm thinking she is thinking that she basically locked in/trapped the 21 percent that voted for her into voting for her again and now she's going for the undecided/right-leaning centrists that voted for macron

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-MuMJsXgAE5ZSd.jpg

Whole Lotta Pen

xp to myself

~3% difference plus margin of error

she's got a chance

She has a 20%+ gap to cover. We'll see how much dumping the FN baggage gets her pretty shortly, I assume.

ya

between melenchon and hamon supporters, i feel like macron has this in the bag?

lotta melanchon supporters will sit this out

true

it'll be interesting to see how many melenchon supporters vote for macron

Wouldn't feel any candidate in any election anywhere in the world has an election "in the bag" nowadays, but yeah, this should be in the bag for Macron.

I'm more curious how many melanchon voters will vote for Le Pen

Fillon voters won't go for Le Pen and probably will go for Macron. Don't see Le Pen pulling in much of the other voters

Mélenchon has revealed his true colours by acting as if Macron and Le Pen are the same thing. And Macron wasn't even the most openly neoliberal candidate of the leading five. I'm oddly reminded of a Harry Partch title: Delusion of the Fury.

I really don't understand this MLP move - or why it isn't being reported as bizarre and nutty.

I mean I understand in theory that she wants to 'lose the baggage of the FN' ...
But if the FN is unhelpful 'baggage' maybe it was a bad move to be ... leader of it for the last ... several years?

And what voter is going to think: 'Oh, yes, that woman -- the Independent -- she always seems to speak her mind and doesn't have any truck with party politics'. I mean ... she has been leader of a party for years up until 5 minutes ago, and says she will go back to being leader of it !

It's one of the most bonkers things I have ever heard of in politics.

Uuh guys, Marine Le Pen didn't go independant, it's just that for the rest of campaign she won't oversee the inner workings of the party.

^^^been a lot of bonkers things in politics recently tbf :(

there was talk after the US election about guilty Trump voters, ppl who wanted to vote against Clinton and were looking for a way to justify a Trump vote to themselves, idk if there's an equivalent demographic in France, and if MLP not officially being the FN candidate would make them more likely to go with her?

I really don't see where she can gather the millions and millions of vote to gain on Macron, perhaps a little amount of Fillonistes will go Le Pen but that's about it? Maybe Sarkozy will have a darker role in all of this, which would be a classic dick Sarkozy move. But seriously, if 60% of the Melenchon voters and half of the Fillion voters go Macron, she's done.

And her move as a fictional non-FN candidate will be of very very marginal consequence, the FN political machine will continue to campaign for her.

that clears up why english-speaking media said it was temporary

it's a leave of absence and would be returning in a couple weeks

this is what i get for being too lazy to read french news

http://www.lemonde.fr/election-presidentielle-2017/article/2017/04/24/marine-le-pen-se-met-en-conge-de-la-presidence-du-front-national_5116791_4854003.html

Marine Le Pen tente de se forger une stature rassembleuse, hors du cadre du Front national. Dans cet objectif, la candidate, qualifiée pour le second tour de l’élection présidentielle, a annoncé, lundi 24 avril, qu’elle se mettait « en congé de la présidence du Front national ».

...

Selon les statuts du FN, « en cas d’absence ou de maladie » du président en exercice, c’est au premier vice-président d’assurer la présidence du parti. En l’occurrence, à Jean-François Jalkh, qui est aussi député européen. Un homme à la fidélité éprouvée, aussi bien par Jean-Marie Le Pen que par Marine Le Pen.

L’annonce de Mme Le Pen est avant tout de pure forme : les instances du parti - toutes dirigées par le président - ne devraient a priori pas se réunir pendant les deux semaines à venir. Mais, selon l’entourage de la candidate, cette mise en retrait doit lui permettre une plus grande liberté pour pouvoir amender certains aspects de son projet et rallier des soutiens.

L’eurodéputée, qui estime qu’il lui manque « dix petits points » pour l’emporter, a d’ailleurs fait lundi soir des appels du pied au candidat souverainiste Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (4,7 % des voix). « Il a un projet qui est extrêmement proche du nôtre », a argumenté Mme Le Pen, qui a aussi soutenu qu’il y avait « des contacts en cours » avec des membres du parti Les Républicains (LR).

also 10% away is kinda what my thinking was, which was already discussed upthread that might not work in her favour, since fillon supporters might sit this out. i'm guessing she/her party is tallying up le pen and fillon votters vs macron, melenchon, and hamon voters, which means she would be about 9ish points behind? or maybe she's referring to something else?

that's her own estimation. dunno the maths behind it and if it's accurate (it could be!).

absolutely, it's her own, and was the back of the napkin math i was going by upthread

i woke up super confident she was done and now i'm super worried thanks infinty

tbf french radio was referring to it as a resignation today as well

you guys don't have anything stupid like an electoral college, right

xxp

haha

dix petits points!

who knows, hoping macron

thought you were in canada tho

canadian with french origins! my whole family lives there.

Mélenchon has revealed his true colours by acting as if Macron and Le Pen are the same thing. And Macron wasn't even the most openly neoliberal candidate of the leading five. I'm oddly reminded of a Harry Partch title: Delusion of the Fury.

― pomenitul, Monday, 24 April 2017 20:49 (one hour ago) Permalink

Or he doesn't want to act like a servant of neo-lib interests. If he supports Macron the far-right can say he is an establishment guy in 2022.

Melenchon supporters can make their minds up.

xp

nice

might be in paris next year

Let me guess, because neoliberalism and neofascism are two sides of the same coin? Ite, missa est.

That would require a serious tectonic plate event non xp