French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

I mean, yeah, the anti-racist thing is to somehow find a solution to the much larger problem. To touch on what dowd said, I honestly don't think left-wingers are supposed to like tent-cities for homeless people as well. I of course support resources for shelters, needle exchanges, legal places to take drugs ('fixing rooms' in translated Danish, what's it called?) and it would be nimbyism to dislike it nearby. But tent-cities aren't really good for anyone...

least of all the people that are living in them

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that tent cities are good. But I work from the premise that people don't establish them unless they need to - I might be wrong, could be the people there had access to better housing/shelter but refused it, but then the reasons for that should be the main discussion - and as such tearing them down without offering an alternative solution helps no one.

Or, well, not "no one", but it certainly doesn't help the people in the tents.

je suis rich fuck suck up

fp'ed xyzzzz for the 'vile shit' comment, btw.

I could "FP" for calling austerity a buzzword. Instead I'll call you a cunt, like a grown-up.

Your inability to project yourself beyond UK politics is sad in light of your ethos.

can we get a trop long pas lu on that long pièce baaderonixx quoted

It's jejune gibberish: 'I'm gonna vote for Macron out of sheer spite for his supporters so I can watch their champion fail them.' Or something.

What do you mean by this?

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, April 26, 2017 5:12 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

For education: it is a very elitist system, in which you have a bunch of elites grande écoles (Polytechnique, HEC) that are reserved to the very best students who prepared their whole lives for the entry in those schools, which are mainly white rich kids. Those schools are also relatively small compared to US, Canadian and UK universities. And then you have under-budgeted universities, over-cramped and sometimes of very of poor quality, that apart from a few will lead mostly to nowhere, they are free though! Technical schools are pretty dope, but as everywhere in the western world they are being frowned upon, unfortunately. Medical schools is a whole different thing and I heard that even in free universities they are of good quality, but I don't know enough to give a full portrait of them. In any case, it is not working for most people, with both the left and right barely proposing changes. The right want to maintain the good ole elitism system, the left doesn't want to change the nature of free universities for the people. The moment any reform will be proposed by any governement, I can assure employed teachers and well-fed students (with full benefits and the 35h work week) will take to the streets and paralyse the nation.

For job flexibility, it is just super complicated to hire someone in a small and medium sized company, which are usually the best way for lots of citizens to get employed. The risk is very high, since you can't fire a worker, there is no financial incentive to hire one. I mean, there is a 35h work week law. Some rigidity needs to go, labor laws in France are a relic of a non-globalised world, and well, love it or not globalization happened. Now, youth unemployment is at 24%. The El-Khomri law passed in 2016, something that tried to thread the line between union power/rigid labor laws and pro-small/medium business wants, despite massive massive protests, so we'll monitor how it goes. Obviously some leftists (students groups and CGT, the powerful union) saw this as an attempt to go FULL AUSTERITY, and shitheads cops being violent didn't help. The right, the Fillon and Sarkozy right, actually do want to go FULL AUSTERITY, which is not going to work at all right now because Europe's growth is sluggish, it would indeed bring untold misery to millions. The rhetoric they are using about 'pouvoir d'achat' and employment is helping blur the lines and general confusion abounds. It doesn't help that no serious candidate as ever been a real centrist (a position that works in other countries afaic).

and f'p ― xyzzzz__, we can have conversations and disagreements without calling another person that word.

LOL, yes that terrible word. But playing games on what is or isn't austerity = fine and dandy.

What a joke.

VHS thank you that is really well explained. The education part certainly jives w my experience.

One thing missing in your analysis of the education problem is the fact that this situation largely stems from the combined effects of the socialist pledge 30 years ago to bring baccalaureat success rates to 80% and the obligation made on universities (as opposed to grandes ecoles) to take in anyone with a baccalaureat (any type of admission selection being forbidden)

my anecdotal understanding is that (some?) universities partly get around the admission selection ban by failing most students at the end of the first year

(not that that solves the real problem)

yes that's what's happeing in the medical universities in particular

I don't agree that the regular university system here is poor (full disclosure: I'm a faculty member at one of them, though it is either the 1st or 2nd best of them as gauged by international rankings). In my unit (philo) our first year undergrad pass rate is about 50%, sometimes a bit lower. Standards are quite high, and the work is difficult: first year students regularly confront material that in the USA I didn't see until grad school (but I went to a pretty dumb university in retrospective, I think the level can be higher at Ivies). All you need is a bac to get in, so plenty of students don't have the discipline for university work, and they fail, and the universities are not sentimental about this. Basically, we don't coddle our students, since we're not expecting alumni donations to fund us, and so there's no grade inflation, and so weak students are weeded out quickly. By the third year students are primed for a very high level of work. In general, the quality of our students is as high as my undergrad students were at St@nf0rd, and higher than at Ill-annoy. Naturally it's the same with masters and doctoral students.

I don't know how things are in, like, Besançon or Brest. I know our students are very happy to get positions at those places so they don't lack for quality faculty.

that all may be so but primary education is ridiculously rote and traditional. it all feels like a game to see who can be the best copyist. kids are basically made to start choosing a career path age 14 or 15. everything VHS said about rich white kids preparing for the best university places their entire lives feels very otm, and it's interleaved with this intense rule-following, form-filling, tickbox bureaucracy that frustrates even relatively well-educated and advantaged families. not to mention the whole system of private "prep" schools to better equip high-aiming students for the brutal entrance exams for the top unis

I have three kids in public school here (primaire, collège et lycée) and none of them are doing rote work, at least not any more than they did in public school in the USA (maybe the UK is much better in this regard?). have your kids gone to school here (lately)?

prepas aren't all private. they are brutal, for rich or poor. I won't disagree that having money/roots here helps you learn which are the best prepas (I don't know these things, though most of my friends here are normaliens and their kids just go to regular public schools, in regular (i.e. northern) parts of the city). Things are improving re. entry to the grands écoles too: my eldest, at a lycée DERS (like a ZEP), goes to Sciences Po most weekends for a special program to acquaint students from underprivileged schools to learn about the system (she got to meet Omar Sy there, for some reason, but also various ministers).

I'm pretty high on education in France, as an immigrant who came out of choice rather than need. Behavior in the classrooms can be a problem but it was like that in my schools in the USA (in desegregated / bused schools, as was the fashion in those days).

yeah my kids are currently in school in france. GS is fine but CED kinda sucks. it's not just the teacher, tho she is a problem. it's that the kids are all expected to be little soldiers. conformity is REALLY rewarded, originality is REALLY not. by which i mean not just original ideas but different ways of learning. everyone is treated exactly the same (as in the army) and expected to respond exactly the same to exactly the same stimuli. it's tempting to draw parallels to the current mainstream interpretation of laïcité but that would be too simple... right?

UK schools group kids by ability and learning styles (to an extent) and don't mind mixing year levels for certain subjects i.e. phonics. and just in general seem POSITIVE about differences.

interesting, our experience hasn't been like that, wrt conformity & originality, neither in val de Marne, Marseille, Seine-et-Marne, and now Paris, from moyenne section through 1ère lycée. It's true that teachers don't adapt particularly well to differences in student ability, but my kids have regularly been ahead of the classes and given extra (optional) work either for home, or in replacement of what they're doing in class (not just in anglais obv but also in math). also I am pretty old-fashioned and think that there's a lot that has to be learned by rote, particularly in language learning (my kids did CLIN/FLE here, then spanish, german, ancient greek, latin, and now mandarin). But yeah, I'm comparing with the USA and France, not the UK and France.

maybe it's just bordeaux. all my friends here have the same impression as me.

Jalkh stepping down. le lol!!

Le Pen now appealing directly, on television, to Mélanchon supporters to form a "roadblock" against Macron

quel surprise

This is damming: https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/philippe-marli-re/republican-front-against-marine-le-pen

An Opinionway poll carried out after Sunday’s vote shows that 54% of people who cast their vote for Macron, voted tactically. The truth is that the former economy minister has no solid constituency backing him, and no real popularity.

I guess a lot of centre-left just wanted to block Melenchon. Also clear why Fillon backed Macron, no hesitation.

Agree that Melenchon should back Macron, and then organise to gut him.

For job flexibility, it is just super complicated to hire someone in a small and medium sized company, which are usually the best way for lots of citizens to get employed. The risk is very high, since you can't fire a worker, there is no financial incentive to hire one. I mean, there is a 35h work week law. Some rigidity needs to go, labor laws in France are a relic of a non-globalised world, and well, love it or not globalization happened.

In the UK (hey look globalization happened ok I'll keep posting here) worker rights are chipped away. Now we are seeing politicians being elected on a promise to take a hammer to the system, whether they mean it or not. While you can't (or wouldn't necesarily) want to turn the clock back new contracts have to be drawn up between workers and employers. This "workers won't employ if rules are too strict" is bollocks to me.

'Globalization happened' is such a weird excuse for not knowing anything about the rest of the world...

Also, Melenchon apparently just refused to endorse again?

What's your excuse for not knowing anything about the rest of the world?

lol. No you are!

not sure how much endorsements come into play in france but...

my understanding is that a melenchon supporter voting le pen is due to her/his anti-eu stance, other than that, they couldn't be more different

in fact two days ago guardian reported that the melenchon election team was advising voters not to cast their vote for le pen

yet they're skeptical of voting macron because he's seen as part of the establishment

if they abstain//vote blank/spoil their vote it's still enough for macron to be elected i think

because fillon endorsed macron as of a few days ago

(sorry haven't read the latest. it's been a busy news week!)

mélanchon has said he will not be voting for le pen. and he has left it at that. went on a rambling youtube excursion today where he clarified nothing. he is visibly relishing his dare i say it clegg-esque role at the moment.

fwiw, 100% of all my mélenchoniste friends and family have told me they are voting macron without hesitation, but that they support mélenchon's decision not to (publicly) support macron.

my understanding is that a melenchon supporter voting le pen is due to her/his anti-eu stance, other than that, they couldn't be more different

Yeah, but you don't get to vote for the fascist and claim it's for their other views. And I still don't get how it can be at all tactically smart, Melenchon seems rambling, and Le Pen are actively trying to underline their similarities, and how on earth is it good for left-wing populism that a fascist is trying to make it seem similar.... But oh, nevermind, so far Le Pen's campaign seems like a clusterfuck, so I guess it's not so dangerous now.

Yeah, but you don't get to vote for the fascist and claim it's for their other views.

I don't think the argument is that people are justified to vote for Le Pen but rather that Mélachon doesn't have much in the way of single issue voters? No idea whether that's true or not.

Whether or not the far right benefits from his stance, though, I'm pretty certain it benefits the centre and damages the left - I think a lot of voters, especially younger, will feel deeply alienated by the half-arsedness of his condemnations of Le Pen, and are more likely to act on a "I'm with whoever's against the racists" (not the worst stance to take, after all) logic than a "no concessions to neoliberalism!" one.

NB you do get to vote for the fascists and then claim it's for their other views

I really liked this interview with Piketty: http://www.liberation.fr/debats/2017/04/28/thomas-piketty-plus-le-score-de-macron-sera-fort-plus-il-sera-clair-que-ce-n-est-pas-son-programme-q_1566141?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1493476750

Uh

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/29/opinion/sunday/is-there-a-case-for-le-pen.html?smid=tw-nytopinion&smtyp=cur

thought that was just going to be a clickbaity headline for a piece about why Le Pen is Actually Bad

I accidentally flagged that post sorry soref :(

that Douchet article is terrible, "I want a fascist of my own, not the one from Queens I have already"

So video has just popped up of Le Pen plagiarizing a Fillon speech from last month almost 100% verbatim - and not just a sentence or two, but a lengthy passage, almost two minutes long.

This Twitter thread breaks it down pretty thoroughly:

https://twitter.com/NassiraELM/status/859129913969963009

Does this matter?

It would only matter if the election were exceedingly close. Most voters draw conclusions about what they think a leader will do and vote for one they imagine is better aligned with their personal desires. Plagiarism of an opponent is so tangential to this thought process that I doubt it would sway massive numbers of votes away from Le Pen or toward Macron.

debate tonight

Yanis Varoufakis:

“I shall mobilise fully to help you beat Le Pen with the same strength that I shall be joining the next Nuit Debout to oppose your government when, and if, you, as President, attempt to continue with your dead-end, already-failed neoliberalism.”

I still don't get why Melenchon couldn't just say something similar... But oh well.

great to know varoufakis will be voting for macron

he

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/french-elections-marine-le-pen-emmanuel-macron-no-real-choice-a7714911.html

zizek saying there's no difference between le pen and macron. i didn't read it as i value my time - to a very small extent - and don't find zizek's act remotely entertaining anymore