Explosion at Ariana Grande concert in Manchester May 2017 (Also London Bridge/Borough Market attack)

ISIS have claimed responsibility but I don't know how much that means yet. It may have been mostly this one man's invention, or may have had more or less to do with them. Either way, ISIS are definitely culturally literate (members post memes on social media) enough to do artist-specific targeting, and no reason the bomber if acting mostly alone couldn't have been. I have no proof for any of this of course

ISIS is interesting because some random turd can go ahead and do something like this and then ISIS can be like 'oh, ya, that was ummm us, FYI'

Yeah, and the link, the membership, could just be something like a subscription to a video stream

It seems this sort of bomb is not easy to make and operate without specialist help

xp I think it's very important to remember this, by the way, in order to maintain perspective. Even if this particular attack turns out to have been a 'classic' terrorist attack, i.e. made by a concrete organisation with concrete demands and special pin badges to prove membership, still a lot of contemporary attacks are done by individuals whose only contact with such an organisation is online.

Although cf what Tracer Hand says, yes that's a good point. We'll see what emerges I suppose.

that's an important point, and it certainly complicates any narrative you'd want to impose on ISIS-branded attacks. it certainly works in their favor though because even if there was some kind of pattern being orchestrated from above, the lone-wolf factor essentially eradicates that and only makes the whole spectre of terrorism more frighteningly random.

in the online social media materials distributed by isis and the like there is often info regarding bomb making etc.

xp Yeah there's the random factor - but someone acting on their own will struggle to knock out two security guards, or whatever - there are useful limits to how much a lone wolf can do, I guess.

though the perpetrator in this bombing had spent time in Libya so i'd imagine it's not possible to rule out that there's been some irl link. also police were looking for his brother iirc? so maybe not acting totally alone etc. etc. we'll know in due time

for whatever reason this bombing has saddened me more than most - i deliberately don't get emotionally invested in atrocities and disasters if i can help it, buti suspect it's how young so many of the victims and witnesses must have been that has got to me. felt like crying when i read about it yesterday

No problem with that? Your post shows you can separate your inevitable emotions from your take on 'policy'.

This is a well-sourced article about what's currently known

https://www.ft.com/content/93d616a6-3f97-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

UK terror threat level raised to 'critical'. Troops could be deployed. More or less a state of emergency, in other words.

xp Could you c+p that, it's paywalled?

(xp) Yet we're still supposed to have a General Election on June 8.

It's all so senseless. The terrorists who do this sort of thing don't even have a clearly stated achievable goal, just death and destruction.

They have goals. Goal #1 is heighten the antagonism between the Islamic world and the West. The ultimate goal is for their version of Islam to squeeze out all others. They want to build societies based on a literalist reading of sharia law.

ISIS is an organization of dumbass psychopaths but they nevertheless have an ideology and an agenda.

I have an idea the ultimate goal of ISIS might be more banal, beneath the stated aim of a global caliphate - more like claiming a chunk of territory from syria, turkey and iraq and holding it for themselves.

But yes, antagonism between a 'west' and an 'islam' (and also building them two concepts and trying to make them concrete) is a big part of it.

But then I think Josh also has a point about the weakness in terms of definable concrete objectives in these attacks.

xp Could you c+p that, it's paywalled?

― Never changed username before (cardamon), Tuesday, May 23, 2017 1:56 PM (nineteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HFGnAUgCJvEJ:https://www.ft.com/content/93d616a6-3f97-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

or

https://pastebin.com/tDTBaXJJ

Great stuff, thanks again

why i support an anti-war agenda. Western foreign policy for the last 10+ years has only fed into this. we need to stop bombing. we need to stop droning. we need to stop arming. violence begets violence. we always find a convenient scapegoat, someone else to blame and say is worse, never taking time to seriously consider the consequences for those not so geographically privileged (Atlantic and Pacific ocean we love you). the Iraq War and War on Terror are things that happened, are still happening, and have consequences down the line, and will for decades. the US left needs to step up in regards to the anti-war effort. we need to course correct and then some.

so true adam

adam otm, which is also why seeing this current administration is so disheartening, it is almost guaranteed the situation will only get worst down the next 20 years.

At a slightly faster rate than it would have under Clinton, tbf.

This is probably not the best place to discuss it, but it seems ISIS goal is ... isolationist? They want their own country/land/laws, and no outside intrusion. But is that really achievable in today's world? Would anyone be cool with a draconian authoritarian region? A bunch of North Koreas? And would ISIS even be satisfied achieving its amorphous goals and stopping there? It doesn't seem feasible, or morally tenable. It's a total conundrum, really. The west is to blame for plenty of the mess, but there is every indication it would be a mess without our meddling.

That said, given population, poverty, countless years of malicious or misbegotten policy etc., any course correction would take decades. Which might not be a realistic goal, either. Is there any indication that a religious cult bent on mass destruction and/or world domination can change direction? It took centuries for the Christians and Muslims to chill out the first time around.

I don't gather that ISIS is isolationist - my understanding is that they want a clash of civilizations as much as Steve Bannon (and that's a major part of the problem - 'leaving well enough alone' isn't an option any more)

oh good Morrissey's shown up.

was actually waiting for that

cheers and big love btw to those who said supportive things on this thread last night.

a sombre night in the centre of town by all accounts; but thousands out and about; busier even than normal for a warm sunny evening.
Simple Minds did a big 'thing' at their gig tonight; Jim Kerr said some nice things etc. i wasn't there but the footage is on Twitter. i've never been their biggest fan but i bet it was a good gig to be at considering.

a sombre night *tonight* i should say.

I'm pretty sure ISIS strategy is to make me hate everyone and their dumb opinion in my local pub then fuck yeah you win, can we stop now.

(and that's a major part of the problem - 'leaving well enough alone' isn't an option any more)

should say it's not an easy option anymore - even if we stop bombing and interfering and propping up the Saudis and other regional autocrats, ISIS/etc. are still going to be trying to attack Europeans and Americans, which makes it harder to sell non-intervention

as long as Iran, Saudis and EUA do not to step up and use their petrodollars to finance peace in one way or another, ISIS and something similar will happen.

never taking time to seriously consider the consequences for those not so geographically privileged

Seriously wtf does "geographically privileged" mean? Major lols

some territories are better than others. pretty much the only way to explain history most influential movements without being racist, afaic.

So, to say Afghanistan is a 'shithole', that makes one a racist?

Nah I think that's totally fine

ISIS/etc. are still going to be trying to attack Europeans and Americans, which makes it harder to sell non-intervention

The guy who carried this out is from Manchester. That's in Europe.

He didn't seem to like it that much though.

van smack your mouth is a shithole

Seriously wtf does "geographically privileged" mean? Major lols

He means US is privileged by having ocean between it and the rest of the world? So can intervene but locals in the area will suffer more from reprisals than US will

He didn't seem to like it that much though.

No doubt, but this idea that there's thing out there, that we must destroy, separate from us, somewhere over there in the Middle East, and it's called da-da-da-da-da-da-DAHHHH ISIS is simple-minded.

Go over to Syria, get rid of these ISIS dudes, job done.

There isn't a simple solution to this.

I think most recent american interventions, especially with drones but also with aiding saudi arabia's proxy wars and things like that, are immoral on its own terms but i don't think stopping that stuff would make isis and al qaeda disappear.

And like, there are people fighting these groups -- fighting for a decent society. What is our responsibility to them? To the Iraqi army retaking Mosul, to the Kurds? Especially now that American actions created the vaccuums that allowed Isis and others to thrive, can we just cut our losses now, at this point?

i believe extreme poverty and massive inequality in the middle east is the root cause. not unlike how the great depression was one of the major factors in developing fascism in europe.

van smack your mouth is a shithole

― the late great,

Personal attack, congrats.

No doubt, but this idea that there's thing out there, that we must destroy, separate from us, somewhere over there in the Middle East, and it's called da-da-da-da-da-da-DAHHHH ISIS is simple-minded.

Oh geez.. It's that time again, between 24 tot 48 hours after an attack, when everyone's an expert. Didn't think it'd become this basic and lame on ilx, but here we are. The trrrists won.

Come on guys

Sounds like some TVs to watch Channel 4 documentaries on jihadis might be more useful.

that's the joke

Too clever for me and Theresa.

jesus

There are reports, quoting neighbours of one of the attackers, that he was driving the van very fast down the wrong lane of a street near where they all lived last Friday. People were freaking out because there were kids playing nearby and so forth. Makes sense now.

Like the Manchester bomber these guys had been reported to the authorities more than once. This is a massive fuck-up and several people deserve to lose their jobs for this, what's the point of requesting ever-more-intrusive surveillance powers when you can't even adequately monitor a guy who's *in a fucking documentary about jihadism*?

Fuck's sake. I mean that's it right? Shows how deep the cuts have gone if they can't catch someone who's been on TV?

There are reports, quoting neighbours of one of the attackers, that he was driving the van very fast down the wrong lane of a street near where they all lived last Friday. People were freaking out because there were kids playing nearby and so forth. Makes sense now.

why would he be doing this in advance of the attack?

.....practice?

or mental preparation

cause he's fuckin kokooroo

Reports that a van has driven into a crowd of people leaving a mosque in Finsbury Park.

Reports of fatalities after a man knocked over many pedestrians near Finsbury Park mosque pic.twitter.com/V6JVNbBR4y

— Shulem Stern (@ShulemStern) June 19, 2017

Feels like it's time for a rolling thread tbh London Rolling

god fucking dammit