French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

You are a considerate guy, Frederik xp

lol /r/neoliberal ?!?!

But of course!

See, already is pretty clear he isn't blaming the women of anything. So... Grain of salt. Lots of time to rip him to shreds.

LOL sure he isn't.

Arguing with xyzzz is exactly like arguing with the most ardent trumpkin. Your facts are wrong. Yet you continue unabashed.. You're a disgrace to the left, good sir.

"Policy wonk jargon"

Look Fred here is one of the defenders, don't worry yourself too much:

Ok, fuck it. I'm going to half-defend Macron.

— siddhartha mitter (@siddhmi) July 10, 2017

i watched the video and yes, the reporter asking the question is from a cote d'ivoire newspaper and the question references the marshall plan and asks what will be done by the G20 to save africa, effectively. "sauver l'afrique"

this is not a direct translation but basically, Macron's answer starts by saying that for many years there have been promises of a marshall plan for africa and if it were that simple you wouldn't have asked the question.. and he contrasts the marshall plan as a material reconstruction of countries that had essential stability and defined borders, versus the much deeper 'civilizational' problems of africa (!) --> failed states, transitions to democracy, demographic challenges. also trafficking - of arms, drugs, humans, goods - and islamist terrorism. all these issues mixed together, and on the other hand also some countries that are succeeding greatly and show africa is a land of opportunity. and then he goes into roles of private sector, world bank, and government in addressing these problems and the role of partnerships with african organizations.

now i admit french is not my first language and i didn't go to sciences-po but, overall, it feels to me to be arrogant, paternalistic, condescending and offensive.

Who knew!

I doubt I have the time/energy to respond if this goes wild but as a resident of France for the last three years in largely African neighborhoods, where my kids' friends are largely of African descent...I find a lot to agree with in what Macron says.

like, if the question is "how to help Africa?" what kind of answer wouldn't be paternalistic? this thread is too compressed for me to understand what the "good" view is supposed to be.

he is right that dumping billions on african countries will solve nothing.

but perhaps if some CAC40 companies could stop ripping off these countries over and over again it would be a good start.

note that there are a lot of posts in this thread I can't see thanks to the magic of technology and I obv want to dissociate myself with all of those

xp yes companies ripping off African nations + world bank fuckery are horrible and continue to set Africa back. but is the "good" view that if those were ended (and climate change were to end suddenly) then Africa would thrive within 30 years? (also I gather the context here is mostly sub-saharan Africa)

the headlines here in Japan today say that Macron wants a big tax break for the rich, haven't yet read french news to see what that's about

i think that it would help but only be part of a complex solution to a very complex problem. now if that is a paternalistic arrogant and condescending view i have no idea, nor do i know what is the 'good' view.

I agree with that. I'm trying to figure out what's so horrible about Macron's view. evidently talking about African "civilization"? is the thought that you can't critique the values of another group of people because you have no perspective from which to ground such a critique; to suppose there are such perspectives is racist?

one thing i'm certain of: the issues concerning europe when it comes to human rights from 1910-1945 could also be called 'civilizational'. and they got a pretty bonus package for it (some of which was used to extend colonial power in algeria for example).

and there are still "civilizational" problems in France. Macron called French Algerian policy through independence a war crime, and the consequence of that policy still play out today in the segregation endemic to French life (I have academic friends with provincial positions who try to avoid Paris for just this reason. )

they avoid paris because the segregation is so depressing? it's depressing in regional cities too tho ime

also Euler, African neighborhoods in Paris don't really have anything to do with what Macron was talking about right? (i.e. actual Africa?) Does your three years of experience in these neighborhoods equip you to agree or disagree w/Macron's assessment of what ails sub-saharan Africa and what the West's response should be? (i mean, maybe it does! I just don't quite see how)

no they avoid Paris because they don't like mixing with Africans

I raise my experience in these neighborhoods because it means that most of my non-work interactions are with African immigrants to France, which gives me some idea of what contemporary life is like in e.g. the DRC, Côte d'Ivoire, and Mali.

yes companies ripping off African nations + world bank fuckery are horrible and continue to set Africa back. but is the "good" view that if those were ended (and climate change were to end suddenly) then Africa would thrive within 30 years?

I don't think these are the only factors but I do think that a Western leader who fails to take them into account is gonna sound pretty culturally chauvinistic

use of 'civilization' in this context is at best deeply dubious and historically deaf. are demographics civilizational? what does that mean? given that they vary so much over the continent how does looking at this in terms of civilization help?

Man, fuck that original tweet, it wasn't even a speech but an answer to a question. Why the dishonesty, what do people think we will gain by it?

That said, the real answer is of course still absolute bullshit. It's as if someone asked an American politician about reparations, and the politician mentioned all the problems that kept down African-Americans, but didn't mention slavery, redlining, etc. It could perhaps be done without being overtly racist, but it would always be privileged bullshit. Europe has so far to go to get a grip on the crimes of colonialism. I mean, 'failed states', his country just fucked up Libya a few years back and couldn't figure out how to put it back together.

"Macron is actually an NRx guy" seems to have become an alt-right meme

pic.twitter.com/fN66OiV7qL

— Right wing takes (@ViewsFromtheRW) July 11, 2017

tax break for the rich, saying "no we can't have a marshal plan for africa as they have "civilizational issues", taking on the unions, nostalgia for monarchy, looking to change the political system so it's more presidential and parliament's role is more advisory.

and here i was thinking that trudeau was the nadir of the handsome centrist saviour of the free world

Nowhere I have seen Macron discuss a smaller role for the legislative branch, actually he addressed the opposite at his 'state of l'union' speech.

I don't know the English terms for that but he does want to allow "commissions" (committees?) to be able to vote the laws in place of the Parliament.

Those committees already exists and are made of members of the Parliament, a law will generally be seen and worked twice by legislative branch and the executive branch can oppose the amendment made by those laws. If I understand correctly, Macron wants to speed up the process (only examined once by each branch) and to not allow the executive to oppose amendments.

That does mean a law can be voted without a public debate and vote at the Parliament then, right? At leat that's what I understand.

I posted that defence but on reflection can't even agree its a minor thing; its not offensive, but what you'd expect from that man, his class and his politics. The '7/8 kids' has eugenicist overtones (Africa is under-populated if anything).

'Respectable' leftists like Fred want to keep quiet or not raise a fuss - not happening, every dumb remark to be accounted for and pushed back, every inch of the way.

the countries in the world with the highest fertility rates are in africa iirc. so that wasn't necessarily factually that off the mark. "africa has a civilizational problem" from the president of a country that sacked large swathes of africa while "civilizing it" is never a good look

That does mean a law can be voted without a public debate and vote at the Parliament then, right? At leat that's what I understand.

― Dinsdale, Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:08 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

could you link to that info?

(Africa is under-populated if anything)

― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, July 12, 2017 5:22 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

eeeh i don't know.

(Africa is under-populated if anything)

― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, July 12, 2017 5:22 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

speaking of which:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40588246
"If the population growth in Africa continues as now, the African population will double from 1.2 billion people to 2.5 billion people by 2050," Ms Tornaes said.

underpopulated?
I'm interesting in what African women think about that

it's a huge land area with countries varying wildly on population density according to demographics and climate, though!

contraception u+k of course

between us I'm sure we can work out the optimal number of africans

punching numbers in my calculator as we speak

I was actually thinking it wrt Asia I suppose. I did put it in brackets as I wasn't sure.

the countries in the world with the highest fertility rates are in africa iirc. so that wasn't necessarily factually that off the mark. "africa has a civilizational problem" from the president of a country that sacked large swathes of africa while "civilizing it" is never a good look

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 July 2017 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes, but the fact that is on his mind somewhere in the question around Africa's stability...it reminded me of Tory/nu-Lab types who tell people who 'can't afford' children not have them so I'm thinking the worse. 'Optimal number' of Africans is a good summary of this.

The fuck at xyzzz not being able to tell Africa and Asia apart, and then just carrying on. every dumb remark to be accounted for right back at you, you insufferable know-nothing.

What is wrong with this world? I go to twitter and immediately there's a link to a video about eugenics, from the Guardian! https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/video/2017/jul/10/at-11-years-old-theyre-getting-pregnant-the-women-smashing-catholic-taboos-in-the-philippines-video And it was tweeted out by a Danish feminist group, so they're eugenicists too!?!?!

Phillipines, that's in South America, right?

Asia has the highest population density of any of the continents - yes, even more than Europe - so that doesn't really work either.

(xps)

Population density is only part of the picture, though. There's a huge amount of variation across Asia but a lot of the established economies (Japan, S. Korea, even China) have aging populations and below-replacement birth rates.

There has always been an argument that population growth in Africa could potentially bring a lot of economic positives, as well as challenges, but it varies by country. Africa as a whole is a net importer of food but there's no particular reason that it should be if there was sustainable development to go alongside population growth.

There's also no reason to think that Africa would be different to anywhere else in the long term - where high birth rates decline in line with decreased infant mortality.

But there's also no reason to think birth rates and infant mortality are that connected, though, are there? Birth rates has a whole lot more to do with economy, women's rights and family planning. For whatever reason Africa - and large parts of the Middle East - hasn't gotten the economic benefits that has come with medicinal breakthroughs in many other parts of the world.

And I mean 'whatever reasons' with a lot of sarcasm. The French has a fair bit to dot with it, and the world bank, etc.

It's one factor among many but it's also pretty important in understanding why population growth is happening when fertility rates are stable. Reliance on labour-intensive smallholder agriculture is another huge factor - particularly in the context of urbanisation and migration depopulating towns and villages.

The idea that 'eh, having lots of kids is cultural' and not contexualising the economic drivers that underpin that (including all those stemming from the legacy of imperialism and present-day economic colonialism) is what a lot of people were reacting to.

Yeah, but that's not what Macron was saying. That's what came from doctoring the footage.

However doctored the footage may have been, you're on thin ice when throwing words like "civilisational" about in the abstract.

Yeah, but connecting birth rates and 'civilizational' would mean he also thought trafficking routes was a 'civilizational' problem for Africa, and I don't see people making that argument.

But yeah, fuck using the word in that context anyway. And, just, fuck Macron. But still better than Fillon and Le Pen.