09 playoffs thread

Anal rape is the fountain of youth!

Fountain of something...

btw the readable simmons and gladwell solve the problem of how to press in the pros when good point guards will kill u if u try - use it against the opposing teams bench http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090513/part2 - i think theyve hit upon something pretty brilliant that could work seriously

on the simmons tip, his podcast with jeff "the better van gundy brother" van gundy is excellent. lots of old-school nba chatter and a discussion of how badly the refs have been handling physical play in the playoffs this year.

icey is underrating kobe but if lebron was on the lakers this year they would've lost 5 games

las def a better team but yr argument abt kobe not having to do as much falls flat in the situations where he does have to do as much - see last years finals and various assorted other games over the last two years - and yr completely killing yr credibility insisting that hes better than lebron - lebron seriously just had one of the great regular seasons anyone has ever had in the nba and hes raised his game by a lot in the playoffs - guy is just astronomical right now

Totally true - I'm hot and cold on Simmons lately, but that was a great back and forth about the full court press.

And I think they didn't even touch upon a HUGE aspect - if they're pressing more, I think its safe to assume that there would be more turnovers by the opposing team. This would lead to more of a transition game, and your BIGS are running more, thus becoming more tired.

Its not like it isn't exciting when a team goes into a full-court press - more so, I'd say. And its not like there isn't a wealth of benchers who would be perfect for 15-20 minutes a night at full sprint speed.

A really interesting article - and I think they get to the bottom line pretty well: Pros ain't going to give you full-court pressure effort all the time.

las def a better team but yr argument abt kobe not having to do as much falls flat in the situations where he does have to do as much - see last years finals and various assorted other games over the last two years - and yr completely killing yr credibility insisting that hes better than lebron - lebron seriously just had one of the great regular seasons anyone has ever had in the nba and hes raised his game by a lot in the playoffs - guy is just astronomical right now

LeBron had a beastly year - no doubt. But his TEAM won one more game than the Lakers, and the Lakers are a better team. Therefore, LeBron HAD to do more than Kobe. Thus, I would argue that individual stats are worth less than you make them out to be in this argument.

I also don't buy the LeBron in the playoffs argument - who has he played? The Piss-tons? The Hawks? Call me when his production continues in a similar manner against the Magic.

Right now, I'm taking Kobe. Next year, three years from now, probably LeBron.

We really can only hope that they both make the finals. Otherwise, this argument will continue for a while.

all i'm gonna say is that if you need this year's playoffs to help you decide there's no point in talking abt it until they're over

all i'm gonna say is that if you need this year's playoffs to help you decide there's no point in talking abt it until they're over

Sure there is! Distraction from the monotony of my daily life! Making myself feel like I ACTUALLY know what I'm talking about! Practicing switching windows quickly when my boss comes into the room!

lol fair enough

LeBron had a beastly year - no doubt. But his TEAM won one more game than the Lakers, and the Lakers are a better team. Therefore, LeBron HAD to do more than Kobe. Thus, I would argue that individual stats are worth less than you make them out to be in this argument.

― Two Will Get You Three (B.L.A.M.), Thursday, May 14, 2009 1:45 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is a tautology wrapped up in contradiction - it makes so little sense i really have no idea where to begin - lol

Well, try. The condescending, dismissing out-of-hand argument is REALLY stupid, regardless of how stupid my argument seems to you.

1. The Lakers are a better team than the Cavs.
2. The Lakers won one less game than the Cavs.
3. This difference is not large.
4. LeBron is expected to do more on the Cavs than Kobe is on the Lakers - this situation is similar to the '05-'06 season that you point to as Kobe's peak year. Therefore, the situations are different, and different things are expected of each player.
6. Thus, the use of individual statistics as a yard stick for their respective qualities as a player may not be the truest measure.

Now, where's the tautology? Where's the contradiction?

your argument makes sense in theory i guess (?) but im pretty sure the general consensus is that if lebron was on the lakers they would lose nothing (if not improve by a few games) and if kobe was on the cavs they would've lost 5-7 more games

and look, kobe can still score with lebron no doubt, but it's not like the lakers having better players means that kobe doesn't have to rebound or pass like lebron has to — if kobe could average 30/8/8 like lebron he would

if kobe could average 30/8/8 like lebron he would

I don't know if I buy this, though.

How about this: Was Michael Jordan better when he scored 63 points in a playoff game, when he averaged 37 ppg, or when his team won 72 games in a season, en route to a championship?

I would argue that he was at his best when his team was winning.

Shit, Karl Malone had ridiculous numbers for his entire career, but I don't think anyone would put him up over Tim Duncan as the best power forward to play the game.

your argument makes sense in theory i guess (?) but im pretty sure the general consensus is that if lebron was on the lakers they would lose nothing (if not improve by a few games) and if kobe was on the cavs they would've lost 5-7 more games

This is like arguing that if I took a Ferrari engine and put it into a BMW, the BMW would be better than it was with its own BMW engine. Its not necessarily true - the Lakers have pretty much been designed around Kobe, and likewise with the Cavs around LeBron. I don't think they're interchangeable parts.

1. The Lakers are a better team than the Cavs.
2. The Lakers won one less game than the Cavs.

these points constitute a contradiction - if u look at the teams scoring margins it becomes even more clear that the cavs are the better team - if youre talking abt the teams w/o their respective stars then fine - but then if kobe is better than lebron why doesnt he do as much and make his team overall better than the cavs - is someone really asking him to do less than lebron - for what purpose so as to not have home court advantage in the finals - it just makes no sense

kobes is better than lebron > but his individual stats are worse than lebrons > therefor individual stats must not matter > because kobe is better than lebron = tautology

so you DID know where to start

How about this: Was Michael Jordan better when he scored 63 points in a playoff game, when he averaged 37 ppg, or when his team won 72 games in a season, en route to a championship?

― Two Will Get You Three (B.L.A.M.), Thursday, May 14, 2009 2:18 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

u know yr stretching when youre ignoring all other stats except scoring, the presence of teammates and the fact that youre comparing the 63 point game to nothing

no seriously i had to figure out where to start xp

arguing that kobe is better overall than lebron is just nuts. if you believe for a second that kobe wouldn't get the hugest boner at the chance to lead the lakers this season in total points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals like lebron did this year for the cavs you're crazy. he's just not able to and it's not because the lakers have better rebounders or better passers (they arguably don't)

1. The Lakers are a better team than the Cavs.
a. The Lakers, as individuals, are a more talented group of individuals.
b. The Lakers won one less game than the Cavs, while playing in a significantly better conference.

As a better team, both as individuals and as a group, the Lakers rely less on their best player than the Cavs do. Therefore, Kobe doesn't need to, and I would argue SHOULDN'T score/rebound/steal as much as he could - as an INDIVIDUA - for the betterment of the team.

kobes is better than lebron > but his individual stats are worse than lebrons > therefor individual stats must not matter > because kobe is better than lebron

This isn't what I said.

one could argue that if strength of sched is taken into account, kobe's team had a better year than lebron's.

if you believe for a second that kobe wouldn't get the hugest boner at the chance to lead the lakers this season in total points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals like lebron did this year for the cavs you're crazy.

Then call me crazy.

He wants another championship, and he's bought into the idea that the whole team beibng more involved than him just getting off is a better way to do it.

To be decided (hopefully) in the Finals.

but yeah i do think the 86-87 jordan was clearly better than the 95-96 version - might want to look at the other player on those bulls teams for clues as to their disparate records

everyone should steal and rebound as much as they can!

given the same teammates, i think 95 mj beats 86 mj in a 7 game series. just a smarter player, plus stronger. ditka would beat them both tho.

yeah i still have no idea what u think kobes sacrificing his game for - so that worse scorers can take more shots - so that kobels can be more efficient himself - lebron had a higher usage rate than kobe w/a worse supporting cast and he still played more efficiently

old jordan was smarter but young jordan was just a uniquely unstoppable force - people everywhere even on ilh are forgetting abt this!

old jordan was smarter but young jordan was just a uniquely unstoppable force - people everywhere even on ilh are forgetting abt this!

He didn't win his first championship until 7 years into his career. So, young jordan was, actually, quite stoppable. By the Cavs (Ehlo edition) and the Pistons.

yeah i still have no idea what u think kobes sacrificing his game for - so that worse scorers can take more shots - so that kobels can be more efficient himself - lebron had a higher usage rate than kobe w/a worse supporting cast and he still played more efficiently

He's not sacrificing his game. He's playing his game. Well. The end goal - the one that REALLY matters - is a championship. Dominique Wilkins, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing...all these guys have a HUGE hole in their resumes.

Kobe is playing more of a team game, whereas LeBron IS the team. Kobe has bought into the idea that playing this way will win a championship.

I truly believe that Kobe could have as many points and assists, if not more, than LeBron per night, even now. LeBron is bigger and stronger, so he's a better rebounder. Call me crazy, but I do.

i have the starting lineup young mj figure displayed on my desk. never forget!

young mj had complete horseshit surrounding him. pistons didn't stop him, they stopped his teammates. BUT they were the best at keeping him from getting to the rim, so it'd be very interesting to have seen how old mj ie the one with the deadly midrange jumper, would have fared against them, even w/lesser teammates.

dude blam u r vacillating wildly between arguing for team play and pretending no one except the star player on a team even exists

imagine young mj in todays no perimeter hand checking/everyone shoots 40% on threes league holy shit

Alright, alright, alright....

Lets just bottom line this whole thing.

The real measure of the quality of an NBA Basketball player is the number of championships they've won. If you're LeBron James, and you never win one (probably not going to happen, but who knows?), you are (a) the biggest waste of potential in the history of wasted potential, and (b) a worse NBA player than Robert Horry (seven rings!).

dude blam u r vacillating wildly between arguing for team play and pretending no one except the star player on a team even exists

I'll vacillate however the fuck I want! I'll vacillate the shit outta this argument!

Honestly, I moved into the more team-oriented argument once I needed a justification for Kobe's lower stats from 05 until now. I stick by it.

haha ok

w/MJ it's a chicken-egg thing to some degree. did he finally figure out he needed to trust his teammates in order to win a title and so his teammates got opportunities to show their value? or did he trust his teammates more because they were better and HAD more value inherently. i think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

noah keeps up the class act w/an offseason dose of fake tittays http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/deadspin/2009/05/Picture_23.png

god damn are those fake

if mj had come into the league w/his champ era teammates and coach i dont think he wouldve ever considered not trusting them

xp lol just saw that--will remember when hearing for the millionth time how he's thoughtful, intelligent, and not at all what you would expect off the court.

dont get me wrong id be hitting up the groupies if i was in the nba @ 21 but at least show some taste

he's showing that he has a taste for huge knockers

true, mr cr?m. esp coming out of UNC.
xp
likewise i remember him earnestly saying how he learned that going on a world tour party last summer was the wrong thing to do and this summer would be all about basketball. granted the season isn't even over for some players and dudes need some r and r in any case.

another pretty face ruined by horrible fake boobs, thanks again howard stern

sure take a couple weeks off but fakies uhg

hey maybe he can't swim and didn't wanna wear one of those plastic dinosaur shaped flotation devices

Alright - more important: I have a Lakers shirt that has only been worn once on a game day. The Lakers lost that game.

Should I
(a) Wear it tonight
(b) Not wear it
(c) Perform some sort of purging ritual to rid it of its loss juju, and then wear it.

If (c) is your answer, what would said ritual consist of?

imo its ok to wear it since its not a must win

Risk the doubling up of loss juju? I mean, it could be just the thing to cleanse it.

But if I wear it, and they lose again, I might never wear it again.