French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

Why is Kanté’s heritage in Africa anyone else’s to celebrate, if he’s not doing it? Or Mendy’s? These are private things. What is public is that they are French. They can choose to make their heritages public, but it is their choice. Your motivation might be different from the FN’s, but the effect is the same: to rob them of their choice on how to relate their heritage and their nationality, for your own purposes.

These questions are ones we can, and should, disagree about. There are a variety of perspectives at play here. A South African perspective will carry baggage that may obscure the French situation—-just as my French immigrant’s perspective does. I am denying privilege here to any perspective; Noah and others I read judged their perspective sovereign. Let us listen to individuals rather proclaim authoritatively which read on identity is “correct”. Let’s engage this politically then, not metaphysically.

rather THAN proclaim

Pointing out someone's background, including one's own, is not necessarily a violent gesture. It depends on the context. Conversely, refusing to acknowledge someone's background, including one's own, is not necessarily an inclusive gesture. It depends on the context. There is nothing specifically 'metaphysical' about this.

I ain't denying them anything, I'm just saying that 1. they can be whatever they want to be, to identify as african, as french, as both, as neither, it's up to them and that 2. people can celebrate whatever they want to celebrate and how they see their realities in the french players is up to them as well. A white kid from Lyon might just see the french team, which is great, an Ethiopian kid can see the africans who made it in France and are allowed to be fully both on the field and celebrate that, which is great too. As an immigrant from one privileged country from another I absolutely celebrate the fact that like me they are second (or first) generation immigrants. The problem is when you start denying stuff that you have no idea about, may that be that frenchness (like the FN does) or their africanité (like some french centrists, liberals and softer right wing are doing). Just the idea is disgusting: french people get to dictate how black americans should see their french black brothers.

Pointing out someone's background, including one's own, is not necessarily a violent gesture. It depends on the context. Conversely, refusing to acknowledge someone's background, including one's own, is not necessarily an inclusive gesture. It depends on the context. There is nothing specifically 'metaphysical' about this.

― pomenitul, Saturday, July 21, 2018 5:37 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah and Noah went at length to discuss how context is everything, Araud ignored that. Perhaps a portion of the french people never understood context, some of them really do believe the ideals of their republic is universal.

Noah doesn’t understand the French context very well then, more just his own.

He does. He explained it. He is just not going to extract himself from his context for the sake of an arrogant ambassador or out of date ideals written 200 years ago. Plus, it seems that in the situation, it is north american's view on multiculturalism that french don't understand the context of: the proof is that some french are dumb enough to link freaking Trevor Noah to the FN's ideology.

Disagreeing with rigourist assimilationism, i.e. l'intégration à la française, does not mean you don't understand the French context.

xp

They can choose to make their heritages public, but it is their choice.

lol

good luck with france guys

it's ironic that Paris is so much more segregated than London - on a surface level you'd think it would be the opposite, that London's out-and-proud "multiculturalism", the public celebration of heritage and maintenance of ways of life, religion, language for diaspora communities would lead to people being all hived off, and this great French capital where heritage is a private matter and everyone is drilled from youth on how to be French would lead to a kind of common cheek-by-jowl living - but it's the other way round

There's no choice in London to do anything other than live cheek-by-jowl.

yeah it’s better to say Noah disagrees with the French perspective. The ambassador doesn’t agree with Noah’s perspective. Disagreement isn’t “owning”. These are political questions, and it’s good to have different states embodying different political ideals. I am happy in France after dealing with American racism (as a Latino) for 30+ years. I’m going to argue from my perspective and I urge others to do so too: otherwise we’re trying to make politics for other people who aren’t asking for your “help”, your cultural imperialism.

The owning part is when the ambassador tweeted that Noah was doing the exact same thing as the FN and Noah clearly explains how this is bonkers and obviously false.

as habermas might say, trying to wish away blackness isn't enough to make it so

This isn’t about “wishing away blackness”, it’s about whether these men should think of themselves as African or as French or as a hybrid of the two. I have dealt with the hybrid treatment in the USA as a person of color, and I think the French way is better. Your perspectives, as people of color or not, might be different. Of course my color, my heritage, will be evident to people. Why is it so important to you to hybridize these men, who haven’t asked for such a thing?

The statement that English people have a grudge against the French is not useful. Some English people might do. Many English people, like me, love France. Some others may be indifferent.

Euler because i think difference is great and interesting and worth celebrating and finding out about and learning from! Somehow i feel this answer is not going to satisfy you though!

Most English ILXors are Francophiles to some extent really.

I think polite society should permit some level of grudging against former colonial powers, but I don't see the point in any intra-grudging between them over shit from the Napoleonic age, that's just taking it too far!

I'm thinking there's an element of resentment that we in a live in a shit, getting shittier, country where we're treated like shit because we allow ourselves to be treated like shit and the French haven't "reformed" yet and are still going on strike and standing up for themselves and inconvenient stuff like that.

grr! Macron better hurry up + decimate those pockets of trade union power.. can't be having countries without a defeated workforce on shit money and zero hour contracts!

I suppose it's like when UK people hate on public sector workers, on the notion of them having decent wages, pension schemes, and paid holidays etc..

I was going to mention that exact example - I've given up my pension, how dare you not give up yours.

But Tracer we are going to learn about the differences! Come to the 18th sometime! These discussions are part of daily life, for my kids & their immigrant friends who go back to the bled every summer, but they don’t want to be further stigmatized here by having to hyphenate themselves as Egyptian-French, Congolese-French, etc. Here they can just be publicly French, if we’ll just let them. On the ground this makes a difference. Of course the UK and the USA have different approaches, and we can see the different societies that result, and how harmony among diversity emerges. I’ve lived two of those and I’m happy with this one for now and I want to oppose attempts to nullify the French approach from the outside.

are latinos otherised in europe/france in a way which is comparable to the treatment of ppl of african descent?

I don't think it's reasonable to expect anyone to accept the suggestion that the french nation is such a successful colourblind project that identity functions completely differently there to the rest of the world

No, we’re not otherized at all here.

My view is just: it’s good to try to the French experiment on identity. Classical multiculturalism isn’t working out so well either.

Tom D: someone actually said that to me earlier this year. I was on strike over a pension issue, and mentioned this to an acquaintance, and she was very resentful, basically because she no longer had a pension herself.

For what it's worth, as a Romanian immigrant who grew up in Montreal but who speaks French with a French accent for complicated reasons, I experience far more xenophobia when I'm in France. In part because of the mild shock certain people exhibit when they find out I'm not quite 'one of them' (« mais comment est-ce possible ? »), in part because I'm generally perceived to be the right kind of immigrant (white, seemingly assimilated, knowledgeable about French culture, yet a bit of a Trojan horse as I only spent three years in France and I don't care to become a citizen even though I could through my wife) and therefore privy to the worst racist drivel, which I'm assumed to agree with by default due to my skin colour. At its best, I do agree that France is preferable to the US, but that's not saying much. At the risk of sounding smug, living in Canada has upped my expectations to such an extent that neither France nor the US can compete in matters of 'vivre ensemble'.

Somewhat 'amusingly', I've also been called a 'sale Français' by French people of Arab descent due to my accent and appearance. Every time I come here, the racial tension is palpable.

xp euler: the no-nonsense secularism appeals to me at times but it just seems like another instance of downplaying/stamping out difference which has so often been a feature/tool of the centralising, top-down, nationalist tendency, and doesn't seem any more unique or exciting in france than it does in china or any other nominally assimilationist society

Just putting this tweet here

Africans: We supporting France cause they’re just another African Team

World: Haha no they’re not

French National Team: pic.twitter.com/HVmgT1y1Ds

— Mmambo (@mbowzay) July 6, 2018

The no nonsense secularism is my favourite part when it’s done right. A breath of fresh air especially after stepping outside of a Romanian grocery store where the owner consistently bids you adieu by resorting to unnecessary religious platitudes.

Xp

Difference is in when those players start playing badly and fuck up:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/22/mesut-ozil-retires-german-national-team-discrimination

Pom did you go to either MdF or Stanislas?

Nope, oddly enough...

One argument that the right wing of France is making, and I insist this is not what you are saying Euler, this is parallel to the specifics of our discussion, is that multiculturalism only leads to cultural ghettos or what they weirdly call 'communautarisme'. The idea that you could have a jewish nation within the French nation, or a Chinese nation within the French nation is seen as counterproductive to a good society, to le vivre ensemble. However my experience in living in what is probably one of the 5 most ideologically multicultural countries of the world is that people from all over the world becomes friends and participate in groups of activities and work well together when given the opportunity.

Certainly you have cultural niches in most large cities but I maintain that on one hand this is not anathema to a good functioning society, I do have my french life, which is usually family related stuff, my parents retains more of France than I do because obviously they were born there and lived 20+ years before moving, we will discuss french news and eat french stuff, etc but none of that doesn't stop me from fully participating in Canadian life, this could be said of all cultures immigrating to Canada. On the other hand if a group of people want to be secluded from the rest of the society (hassidism, mennonites, most first generation immigrants who won't have the time and resources to fully learn the official languages) then it is up to them, that freedom must be respected and I fail to see how it's problematic. The crazy thing is that you see that all the time in France, example of multiculturalism that make it trough the cracks and there is no negative repercussion, the french national team dancing to african music on the plane as posted above is good example of that.

I am not saying that Canadian multiculturalism is the only successful immigration policy, it's the one that made the most sense for Canada, the jury is still out with France's insistence of color blindness as a way to achieve equality and obviously whatever policy you try to implement the success depends on % of racists in a nation, the economy, work on the ground by associations, sensible analysis, etc but the communautarisme as a danger to society is some sort of lie that only exist in a bubble, and one just need to look at other examples to see it's not true at all.

everyone here dances to African music! at least everyone young. African slang, from both sides of the Sahara, is absolutely current. But we don't need to see that as hybridization, but rather evolution of what it is to be French. Some fools on the right see Frenchness as a metaphysical condition, but they're as wrong as the Germans were about their "identity" last century.

Charles Taylor is my favorite living philosopher, so I know the cases for Canadian multiculturalism. but I think it's good to support different political projects in response to migrations. The French model doesn't need to be applied everywhere. But multiculturalism isn't a panacea in practice: as you said, Van Horn Street, these projects depend on the good graces of a people against racism. I live in social housing in the most diverse part of Paris, in a building without any « français de souche » in the right-wing sense, and we were chosen for this apartment by the mairie in the name of "mixité". Not that we will leave behind our Congolese-ness, or American-ness, or Sri Lanka-ness, but that we'll mix together, we'll create a new Frenchness together.

Sounds like you don't fully agree with the modèle républicain, then.

not in its most rigid form, no, but I deny that that's the model in practice today.

France is a de facto multicultural country that dares not speak its name. But what you (and I) like about it is not enforced de jure, which I'd argue is a fundamental failing on the République's part.

in my years here I've come to see how most French political ideals and projects are implemented in a skeletal way. in the details things vary considerably, based on the individuals putting the ideals and projects into practice. I see this in schooling most particularly because of my life as a prof. & father, but I see it in le républicanisme as well. It's like with the US constitution, or with the Bible: these are just sketches to be filled in, with enough of a guide to get the idea.

The problem, though, is that even if we parse it as a rough sketch the republican ideal bends more easily to neo-fascist forces than the multicultural ideal. YMMV, etc.

I don't see the multicultural ideal as opposed to neo-fascism (the FN loves to hyphenate too) but I think we've been over the point a lot already.

I am a bit confused. Euler, were you born in France?

I don't think there was anything about TN's joke that he needed to apologize for or explain away.

No, I emigrated to France a few years ago.

I disagree with Noah's point, but it's nothing to apologize for, political disagreement is good.

I like the point someone else made that it is not the French Team but l'equipe de France.

My personal pet peeve, Euler, is that France used to be a country with many 'french' cultures in it. My great-grandparents spoke a language different from French (languedocien, an Occitan dialect) at home and as a culture that really did disappear over time to satisfy the great (right wing) republican plan of an unified, monolithic and prosperous nation.

oc! i have heard of that language and always been intrigued by its existence