French elections 2017: completing the hat-trick?

Somewhat 'amusingly', I've also been called a 'sale Français' by French people of Arab descent due to my accent and appearance. Every time I come here, the racial tension is palpable.

xp euler: the no-nonsense secularism appeals to me at times but it just seems like another instance of downplaying/stamping out difference which has so often been a feature/tool of the centralising, top-down, nationalist tendency, and doesn't seem any more unique or exciting in france than it does in china or any other nominally assimilationist society

Just putting this tweet here

Africans: We supporting France cause they’re just another African Team

World: Haha no they’re not

French National Team: pic.twitter.com/HVmgT1y1Ds

— Mmambo (@mbowzay) July 6, 2018

The no nonsense secularism is my favourite part when it’s done right. A breath of fresh air especially after stepping outside of a Romanian grocery store where the owner consistently bids you adieu by resorting to unnecessary religious platitudes.

Xp

Difference is in when those players start playing badly and fuck up:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/22/mesut-ozil-retires-german-national-team-discrimination

Pom did you go to either MdF or Stanislas?

Nope, oddly enough...

One argument that the right wing of France is making, and I insist this is not what you are saying Euler, this is parallel to the specifics of our discussion, is that multiculturalism only leads to cultural ghettos or what they weirdly call 'communautarisme'. The idea that you could have a jewish nation within the French nation, or a Chinese nation within the French nation is seen as counterproductive to a good society, to le vivre ensemble. However my experience in living in what is probably one of the 5 most ideologically multicultural countries of the world is that people from all over the world becomes friends and participate in groups of activities and work well together when given the opportunity.

Certainly you have cultural niches in most large cities but I maintain that on one hand this is not anathema to a good functioning society, I do have my french life, which is usually family related stuff, my parents retains more of France than I do because obviously they were born there and lived 20+ years before moving, we will discuss french news and eat french stuff, etc but none of that doesn't stop me from fully participating in Canadian life, this could be said of all cultures immigrating to Canada. On the other hand if a group of people want to be secluded from the rest of the society (hassidism, mennonites, most first generation immigrants who won't have the time and resources to fully learn the official languages) then it is up to them, that freedom must be respected and I fail to see how it's problematic. The crazy thing is that you see that all the time in France, example of multiculturalism that make it trough the cracks and there is no negative repercussion, the french national team dancing to african music on the plane as posted above is good example of that.

I am not saying that Canadian multiculturalism is the only successful immigration policy, it's the one that made the most sense for Canada, the jury is still out with France's insistence of color blindness as a way to achieve equality and obviously whatever policy you try to implement the success depends on % of racists in a nation, the economy, work on the ground by associations, sensible analysis, etc but the communautarisme as a danger to society is some sort of lie that only exist in a bubble, and one just need to look at other examples to see it's not true at all.

everyone here dances to African music! at least everyone young. African slang, from both sides of the Sahara, is absolutely current. But we don't need to see that as hybridization, but rather evolution of what it is to be French. Some fools on the right see Frenchness as a metaphysical condition, but they're as wrong as the Germans were about their "identity" last century.

Charles Taylor is my favorite living philosopher, so I know the cases for Canadian multiculturalism. but I think it's good to support different political projects in response to migrations. The French model doesn't need to be applied everywhere. But multiculturalism isn't a panacea in practice: as you said, Van Horn Street, these projects depend on the good graces of a people against racism. I live in social housing in the most diverse part of Paris, in a building without any « français de souche » in the right-wing sense, and we were chosen for this apartment by the mairie in the name of "mixité". Not that we will leave behind our Congolese-ness, or American-ness, or Sri Lanka-ness, but that we'll mix together, we'll create a new Frenchness together.

Sounds like you don't fully agree with the modèle républicain, then.

not in its most rigid form, no, but I deny that that's the model in practice today.

France is a de facto multicultural country that dares not speak its name. But what you (and I) like about it is not enforced de jure, which I'd argue is a fundamental failing on the République's part.

in my years here I've come to see how most French political ideals and projects are implemented in a skeletal way. in the details things vary considerably, based on the individuals putting the ideals and projects into practice. I see this in schooling most particularly because of my life as a prof. & father, but I see it in le républicanisme as well. It's like with the US constitution, or with the Bible: these are just sketches to be filled in, with enough of a guide to get the idea.

The problem, though, is that even if we parse it as a rough sketch the republican ideal bends more easily to neo-fascist forces than the multicultural ideal. YMMV, etc.

I don't see the multicultural ideal as opposed to neo-fascism (the FN loves to hyphenate too) but I think we've been over the point a lot already.

I am a bit confused. Euler, were you born in France?

I don't think there was anything about TN's joke that he needed to apologize for or explain away.

No, I emigrated to France a few years ago.

I disagree with Noah's point, but it's nothing to apologize for, political disagreement is good.

I like the point someone else made that it is not the French Team but l'equipe de France.

My personal pet peeve, Euler, is that France used to be a country with many 'french' cultures in it. My great-grandparents spoke a language different from French (languedocien, an Occitan dialect) at home and as a culture that really did disappear over time to satisfy the great (right wing) republican plan of an unified, monolithic and prosperous nation.

oc! i have heard of that language and always been intrigued by its existence

Suppression of minority languages and cultures was started during the French Revolution - I don't know if that's who you mean by right wing Republicans.

you can hear occitan on the Toulouse métro !

these year some lycéens responded to bac maths questions in breton, which was forbidden by the rectorat (in Rennes). apparently these answers were not graded in the end (so they got 0/20 for their note on those parts). these are still live issues!

& by "on the Toulouse métro" I mean they make the announcements of stations in both French & in Occitan

I wish I had known that! I am going to be on alert for it next time.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-far-right-emmanuel-macron-polls-popularity-front-national-a8525106.html

"Mr Macron’s fading fortunes look like a blow to his ambitions of creating a new centrist group in the European Parliament, superseding the existing liberal bloc and owing its allegiance to him."

My partner was very angry at tuning in to French radio in the morning to hear Macron lecturing an unemployed man, "but have you really tried to find employment? There are a lot of jobs in the restaurant sector..."

Between this and the time he threw a hissy fit at the high school kid who didn't show him proper respect I wonder if he's going to moralize at the entire nation one person at a time.

The collection of official souvenirs includes Macron-themed mugs for €24.90 (£22) and T-shirts (€55)

talk about misjudging the humeur nationale, what a prize bellend!

The French are notoriously finicky when it comes to leadership, so don’t assume another president would have performed better on this front.

So what's the deal with this raid on Melenchon? I'm inclined to believe that an anti-EU party abuses EU funds, happens all the time, but the usual suspects are claiming it's politically based.

I don't know what happened but I find Mélenchon is the kind of politician I detest. A populist, a demagogue and an intriguer, someone you cannot trust. He is like a Trump from the left.

The Socialist Party was raided while Hollande was in power and both the Modem and La République en Marche were likewise raided since Macron became president.

Bonus points for openly making fun of a journalist's Southern accent after she asked him a difficult question. At this point, Mélenchon is the French left's worst enemy.

Makes for some great quotes, though: 'I am the Republic' and 'my person is sacred'.

xp. no need to bring trump into it, he's a former trot, intrigue is his raison d'être.

as always i would reserve judgement on this case until more is out in the public eye, but you know, it's like 99% certain there's been some impropriety

So the Gilets Jaunes are the new 5 Stars Movement or what?

Je suis fuckin tired of populism.

It's not that easy. It's not really a movement, it's more like every French person who is unhappy with the governement got together to protest for different reasons (even though it was sparked by the rise of gas prices), some of these reasons being completely uncompatible with the reasons of others. It's just a big fucking mess that covers a lot of ground, mixing anti-taxes entrepreneurs with struggling people who just want their kids to have a decent life with people who are fed up with capitalism and corruption of the elites and people who just like to stir shit. But you're right that it definitely overlaps with populist movements.

For instance for poor people who live in rural places and who have bought diesel cars because for decades they've been highly encouraged to buy them by their very own government, and who have been forced to drive even more because lots of local public services like hospitals or post stations have been moved to to the next "big" town that might be 50 kms away and trains have been cut down too, I understand that the rise in gas prices feels leaves a very bad taste in their mouth, coupled with painting them as the nost awful people because they pollute too much (even though wealthy people are in fact responsible for much more pollution than then), all the while giving tax cuts to the wealthiest 1% and letting big companies pollute as much as they want.

Unfortunately that's not all there is to this "movement" but some of the anger is totally understandable. If you want people to drive less you can't afford not to give them alternatives. Most of the country isn't like Paris where a car isn't needed at all, in some places if you don't have a car you don't have a job and you don't have anything.

in *most* places

the rural population of France as a percentage is small, despite the size of rural France, and it's going to be hard to keep those areas up to urban standards with transport and healthcare. I can see why they'd come to Paris and trash things! what else can they do? Cities are always going to be the future, and sometimes the future needs to be tagged. nb I lived in la France profonde without a car for a while but everyone there thought we were nuts. but it was fine, we just walked a lot. note it was not a tiny village but rather a town of 10k and it was on the boundary of the Île de France so there were more or less hourly trains to Paris (that took 1.25 hours each way)

Yeah, the 5 Star Movement actually has representatives, a hierarchy, organisation. Gilets Jaunes have none of that. To view it as a populist movement is missing the mark imo, it's closer to the London riots.

I fail to see how that makes it un-populist?

think the contrast is with "movement" rather than "populist"

Ah, that makes sense, thanks.

An organic, leaderless protest movement with no clear ideology has emerged in France. I've been waiting for this since 2011. Let me explain the French Spring to you.

— Karl Sharro (@KarlreMarks) December 1, 2018

lolll

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/world/europe/france-macron-yellow-vest-protests.html

A third weekend of nationwide protests by the movement, largely made up of working-class people angry about a planned increase in fuel taxes and their dwindling purchasing power, left burned cars and smashed store windows in several of the wealthiest neighborhoods of Paris. The movement is named for the high-visibility safety vests that motorists are supposed to wear when they have roadside breakdowns.

guess the nyt has been busy w/ other stuff, this is the first peep i've heard of this

It's spread to Brussels too now!

Driving from the Basque Country to the Netherlands last week, all through France, it was astonishing to see just how many French drivers have put a 'gillet jaune' in front of their car window, or in between a closed car window. The scale of it is huge, even with those who aren't taking it to the streets.
At our Campanile just above Paris we caught a half our long reportage about some 'gillet jaunes' from Normandy. Working class people feeling they can finally make themselves heard. In their trail though, a potpourri of trouble makers: extreme right, football hooligans, youths looking for a nice riot. It has gotten diffuse and unclear as fast as the protests emerged.

The true question is whether the disobedience can be constructive, what comes the day after, can the progressives in France, and all over the world, use this energy so instead of violence we have images of constructing equal and egalitarian societies?

— Pamela Anderson (@pamfoundation) December 3, 2018

i’m in avignon right now and same story pretty much, tons of yellow vests on car dashes. there was a pretty big march through town on saturday afternoon that seemed peaceful enough, just chanting and whatnot. later on somebody started what looked/smelled like a tire fire on the main road. we were walking back to our hotel when another small fire broke out near us and sent people scurrying down the side streets. looks like some windows were smashed as well.

things have been normal for the past two days. we’re going to be in paris this coming saturday which will be interesting.