Public Enemy: Classic or Dud?

lmao hate to see politics ruin Public Enemy

ppl underrate Yo! Bum Rush the Show

yeah I ignored it for years

otoh this bangs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYblg4i2HD8

head and shoulders above the album though, one of their all-time greatest

nb Bum Rush is good

Muse Sick over Bum Rush and Apocalypse 91 is a pretty good challop

I only listened to Muse Sick maybe once when it came out, and my reaction was that it was such a weak follow-up to Apocalypse 91 (which I love/loved). Wasn't there a big deal made that it cut down on the number of samples and introduced more instruments?

Nation of Millions > Fear >>> Bum Rush >>> Apocalypse 91 >>> Greatest Misses >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Muse Sick > ...those guys are still around? Oof.

That seems right but I’d flip Apocalypse 91 w/ Bum Rush

i would flip fear and nation but yeah pretty otm

He Got Game is ok

I haven't listened to "He Got Game" in a while but yeah, not bad at all. It sounded like PE becoming comfortable with getting old (or at least settling into their role as the wise elders of rap). They even threw in a warbly Stephen Stills for crissakes.

Working with Stephen Stills was enough of an aesthetic crime to almost justify retroactive cancellation of their entire body of work. Had it been David Crosby, irrevocable perma-cancellation, zero possibility of parole.

Had it been Neil Young it woulda been dope

Like I'm sad we didn't get our "Keep on Rappin in the Free World"

Stephen Still's Manassas has some ill jawns

Muse Sick over Bum Rush and Apocalypse 91 is a pretty good challop

it the only op i got

I’ve probably listened to “Give It Up” more than any other single PE track

"Hazy Shade of Criminal" is top shelf PE, I rate it as high as Nations.

I shall listen to it again!

Wasn't there a big deal made that it cut down on the number of samples and introduced more instruments?

Apocalypse '91 was actually the turning point (a downturn afaic) in the Bomb Squad's production:

According to Hank Shocklee, around this time, the disks for every track they had been working on for the past four to five years had been stolen. As a result, they had to rush to re-create their music and to put out their album in a timely manner. Shocklee admitted that it was impossible to completely recover what they had lost, saying "once you lose all your data, it's very difficult to get that data back...you may get some of it back, but you'll never get the complete set. You won't even know what the complete set is, because there's data in there you didn't really know you had." In retrospect, he believed the loss "stunted [Public Enemy's] growth. We never really recovered after that. We was on a roll—I was on a roll, and to lose that material set me back so hard." As a result, the sound was a little leaner than the dense production of their previous albums, and live musicians became a prominent element as well.

By '94 and Muse Sick-n-Hour Mess Age they sounded like most every other rap act that was using 8-bar drum loops and single-source samples.

and like, those albums aren't bad, but they are a pale imitation of the hyperactive density of the first three

CSN&Y was worthless without Neil Young, Stills and Crosby's solo careers were awful, but the Byrds and Buffalo Springfield were truly great bands, and "For What It's Worth" was Stills's song, so that work has my eternal respect.

Re: the lost disks, I heard that story too. It's heartbreaking, but at the same time, I don't want to exaggerate the negative impact it may have had on PE's work. I actually like the production on "Muse Sick-n-Hour Mess Age," but for me the lyrics and delivery really made it a lesser PE album.

hmmm arguing about Stephen Stills in the Public Enemy thread would be extremely on brand for me but I'm going to resist

Re : the lost disks, wasn't it also a case of the legal context having changed and samples being much more complicated/expensive to use ?

I don't recall them getting sued specifically, but yeah after the De La and Biz Markie cases their sampling style became legally and financially problematic

Re: legal context, I've also wondered that myself. A lot of the legal obstacles against sampling were already falling into place, so I'm not even sure if those lost beats could've been used without complication.

BUT look at Beck's masterpiece "Odelay," which came out in 1996 - to be fair, they did have to remove a handful of samples, but the dense production is still astounding.

by "Odelay" Beck was sampling himself/his band as much as other sources. There's some really prominent record samples but also a lot of live instrumentation.

yeah but like clearing Van Morrison for ex. could not have been cheap

though i guess the label was probably (correctly) better that after loser this could be his big blockbuster album and might have been more likely to pony up

yup

by "Odelay" Beck was sampling himself/his band as much as other sources. There's some really prominent record samples but also a lot of live instrumentation.

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, March 3, 2020 8:50 AM (forty-four minutes ago)

That record was almost all Dust Brothers, they have writing credits on all but 2 songs ("Lord Only Knows" & "Minus")

(...on top of the production & mixing credits)

I know that, that doesn't mean it's composed of record samples

"Devil's Haircut" contains a sample from "Out Of Sight" (James Brown) published by Fort Knox Music BMI, performed by Them, courtesy of the Decca Record Co.; a sample from "Soul Drums" (Bernard Purdie) published by Tenryk Music BMI, performed by Pretty Purdie, courtesy of Sony Music; and elements from "I Can Only Give You Everything" (Philip Coulter/Thomas Scott) published by Carbert Music ASCAP.

"Hotwax" contains a sample from "Song For Aretha" (Bernard Purdie/Horace Ott/Robert Thiele) published by Tenryk Music/Well Made Music BMI, performed by Pretty Purdie; and a sample from "Up On The Hill" (Monk Higgins/Alexandra Brown) published by Special Agent Co./Tippy Music Publishing ASCAP, performed by Monk Higgins & The Specialties, courtesy of Blue Note Records, a division of Capitol Records, Inc.

"Lord Only Knows" contains elements from "Lookout For Lucy" (Mike Millius/Don Thomas) published by by Southern Music Publishing Company, Inc. ASCAP performed by Mike Millius, courtesy of MCA Records, Inc.

"The New Pollution" contains a sample from "Venus" (Brad Baker) published by Sonny Lester Music Publishing Co. ASCAP, performed by Joe Thomas, courtesy of LAC Ltd.

"Jack-ass" contains a sample from "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue" (Bob Dylan) published by Special Rider Music SESAC, performed by Them, courtesy of Decca Record Co. Licensed from Exile Productions Limited.

"Where It's At" contains a sample from "Needle To The Groove" (Embden Toure/Khaleel Kirk) published by Hit And Hold Music, Inc. ASCAP, performed by Mantronix, courtesy of Warlock Records.

"Sissyneck" contains elements from "The Moog And Me" (Dick Hyman) published by Eastlake Music, Inc. ASCAP, performed by Dick Hyman, courtesy of MCA Records, Inc. and elements from "A Part Of Me" (Paris/Taylor) published by Zethus Music, administered by Chappell & Co., Inc. ASCAP. All Rights Reserved. Used by permission.

"Readymade" contains excerpts from "Desafinado" (Antonio Carlos Jobim/Newton Mendonca) published by Bendig Music/Carcovado Corp. BMI, performed by Laurindo Almeida And The Bossa Nova All Stars, courtesy of Blue Note Records, a division of Capitol Records, Inc.

"High 5 (Rock The Catskills)" contains elements from "Mr. Cool" (Vincent Willis) published by Cotillion Music Inc./NAP Publishing Co./ Sylheart Publishing Co., administered by Warner Tamerlane Publishing Co., Inc. BMI performed by Rasputin's Stash, courtesy of Atlantic Recording Corp., by arrangement with Warner Special Products, Inc.

(I thought you were familiar with the Dust Brothers, that's basically their entire MO)

https://www.musictech.net/guides/essential-guide/landmark-productions-beck-odelay/

tons and tons of instrumentation

I mean, that's what makes it interesting tbh - it's not a repeat of Paul's Boutique, it's way more of a mishmash of different approaches and techniques.

like, Lord Only Knows is not just an 8-bar loop of Lookout For Lucy, in fact the recorded sample is just the first few seconds of the song - the rest is studio-recorded stuff.

who are you arguing with?

who can keep track any more

By '94 and Muse Sick-n-Hour Mess Age they sounded like most every other rap act that was using 8-bar drum loops and single-source samples.

also Apocalypse 91 is not produced by The Bomb Squad, and the "Bomb Squad Production" credited with half of Muse Sick is aiui completely different people to the Bomb Squad that made the first three PE albums, just Hank popping in and giving a thumbs up or thumbs down to some apprentices occasionally

hmm looks like four tracks are probably Hank productions recovered from the supposedly lost disks, eight are actively credited to other people with Hank's imprimatur, seven produced by ex-members of The Bomb Squad, and a Flav track by one of Hank's apprentices who'd previously done half of Griff's solo album.

PR BTW:

"Flavor Flav has been on suspension since 2016 when he was MIA from the Harry Belafonte benefit in Atlanta, Georgia. That was the last straw for the group. He had previously missed numerous live gigs from Glastonbury to Canada, album recording sessions and photo shoots. He always chose to party over work.

"Public Enemy Radio toured Europe and co-headlined with the Wu-Tang Clan in May 2019 without Flavor. They have also done numerous benefit shows without Flavor. While Public Enemy Radio was moving forward, Flavor Flav was starring on the reality show "Growing up Hip Hop New York,” where an episode featured his children discussing an intervention and putting him into rehab. It’s time to move on and everyone wishes Flavor well."

the supposedly lost disks

are you saying they weren't lost? idgi

yah I've always been dubious about how much of that story is true, given the fact the Bomb Squad had already split up at that point, and that Hank has barely done anything at all since. whether the dog ate his homework or not, I think it's really unlikely that he actually had albumsworth of backing tracks stockpiled.

I can see that. Shocklee clearly a guy that burned out (and got burned, I suppose)

Been revisiting their later albums today. "He Got Game" sounds pretty naked, maybe the leanest production of any PE album by a good margin, but I dig it. Lyrical focus brought on by Spike's film may have helped. Clumsy title aside, 2007's "How You Sell Soul to a Soulless People Who Sold Their Soul?" is actually really good, better than I remembered - I think Gary G-Wiz of the Bomb Squad handles most of the production.

after the first 3 record titles, which are all classic, PE album names become v bad