If you don't have single-family neighborhoods in your city, lucky you
― silby, Friday, 29 May 2020 20:33 (three years ago) link
I mean NYC has them but they are mostly on the outer ring of the city.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 29 May 2020 20:42 (three years ago) link
and a lot of them tend to be more middle class than wealthy, although there are some wealthier ones
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 29 May 2020 20:43 (three years ago) link
class-integrated neighborhoods should be created in majority-wealthy erstwhile single-family-zoned sections of the city by building low-rise social housing and affordable row house, garden condominium, and low-rise condominium units with first-time, income-restricted homeownership in mind.
This is what my jurisdiction does. New buildings must include X affordable units for every Y at-market units (encouraged by tax advantages for doing so). And new development includes a mix of housing types and densities (mandated by codes and zoning). I am sure there is quibbling about exactly what X and Y should be, but in terms of the people I interact with in the neighborhood, and my children's school peers, it is working to some extent.
― beelzebubbly (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 29 May 2020 20:47 (three years ago) link
but are you keeping your NYC place
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, May 29, 2020 7:48 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
No selling
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, May 29, 2020 2:59 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
You want it?
Nah I am planning to abandon DC to contribute to crippling gentrification of SF in about two years
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 29 May 2020 20:51 (three years ago) link
i think SF has passed "gentrification" at this point
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 29 May 2020 21:23 (three years ago) link
True that
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Saturday, 30 May 2020 00:26 (three years ago) link
for north-american residents here: doesn't moving to the suburbs require getting a car? and for families, more than one car? isn't that a reason enough to think that people moving to the suburbs are doing something bad?
― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, 30 May 2020 12:49 (three years ago) link
well, 1. #notallsuburbs - I lived carlessly in a suburb for ten years (albeit an inner burb).
but 2. are you really saying people should only be allowed to live in cities? Or are you saying that people are allowed to not live in a city, but that they are bad people?
― beelzebubbly (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 30 May 2020 15:22 (three years ago) link
when i was younger (lol) i was so against suburbs. now that i've managed to only ever get jobs in suburbs and have driven probably 150k more miles than i would have if i had lived closer, i would like to live in a suburb.
― contorted filbert (harbl), Saturday, 30 May 2020 15:28 (three years ago) link
How I break it down to an extent is that driving is a net evil but also because of how big this country is and how spread out ppl are, in almost everywhere that's not a top tier city, driving is necessary. So the best model for remedying it is a harm-reduction one, I think.
More people should live in cities, govt should build/maintain more robust public transit networks and NOT bigger roads and highways, cars should be smaller and more efficient/electric, gas should cost more, people should drive less, stuff we consume should come from nearby and while we're at it we should consume less. Walking & biking should be massively more accessible & safer. Development should center around walkable, human-scale commercial centers with multi-use zoning (see silby, above). Employers shouldn't be incentivized to put their businesses 20 miles out of town in an office park only accessible by a major highway, and developers should be barred from building them. Idk what did I miss?
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, 30 May 2020 15:57 (three years ago) link
otm
people are allowed to not live in cities, but should acknowledge that they are doing something bad, for the environment chiefly, but also for poor people.
but coming back to in orbit's post,"how big this country is and how spread out ppl are" describes the usa but the size doesn't necessitate the sprawl. people have chosen to sprawl and it's identified (overseas for example) as "the american lifestyle". but it's a choice to have detached housing with individual gardens. & if you choose to live like that, you're part of a problem.
― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:06 (three years ago) link
In orbit massively otm
― beelzebubbly (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:23 (three years ago) link
i am poor
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:33 (three years ago) link
the current pandemic kinda weakens the “more people should live in cities” argument tbh
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:35 (three years ago) link
& you have a car? xp
― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:36 (three years ago) link
anyway yeah in orbit is otm/realistic about it
xp yeah that my parents bought for me
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:37 (three years ago) link
i hate it and i hate driving
climate change kinda weakens the "ac & heating are bad for the environment" argument tbh
― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:38 (three years ago) link
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:35 AM (one minute ago)
Nah I don’t really think so.
― silby, Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:38 (three years ago) link
it's a choice to have detached housing with individual gardens. & if you choose to live like that, you're part of a problem.
Everyone is part of the problem tho
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:38 (three years ago) link
right, so we should just say fuck it & live in detached housing & drive cars
― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:39 (three years ago) link
i'm into hearing more from people like in orbit who want to work toward realistic goals and understand the situation instead of self righteous philosophy professors who moved to france tbr. but i guess that's keeping in spirit with the thread beginning so
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:40 (three years ago) link
I don't hate gardens, per se (though I do hate lawns) but imo there's a difference between "a little big of green space you can manage for yourself" and acres of featureless yard that people use to provide buffers between themselves and their neighbors. I see it all the time in an old house fb group that I follow--everyone complains that houses in towns are "too close" to the neighbors and what they mean is "I can see someone else's house from here/I might have to learn to get along with my neighbors/my complete privacy and sovereignty are not being observed." It's ludicrous and so harmful.
We need a range of options ranging from extremely dense to somewhat less dense. Not everyone wants to live the same way, or can, or should. And we need people who maintain the skills of farming and cultivation and gardening for food and health and ecosystems and natural beauty. But we do need policies that minimize the harm of the range of options, is what I'm saying. I mean, people would naturally choose to live close to things if a) there were pleasant and useful things to live closer to, and b) gas prices actually reflected the indirect costs and harms of its extraction & consumption.
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:41 (three years ago) link
incrementalism is indeed the best way
― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:41 (three years ago) link
xp
drive cars? god forbid
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:42 (three years ago) link
Although from watching a lot of "Escape to the Country" I take it that in UK parlance one calls all yards around houses "gardens" when they are actually just...yards?
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:44 (three years ago) link
yeah it's just like... people who are obviously city dwellers launching into the evils of suburbia. i fuckin know brsh! i hate cars! i literally can't breathe some days because of them. trust me there is nothing i want to abolish more.
anyway i live in a trailer park it's pretty dense i have a tiny yard and idk i feel pretty good about it.
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:45 (three years ago) link
people need resources separate from 50 hour a week shit jobs with shit blue waver bosses so they can actually start to organize around this stuff.
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:46 (three years ago) link
100% agree
― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:47 (three years ago) link
Ultimately I think every single thing I suggested is a matter of policy, though. We need regulation, and that means healthy governance. People won't just decide to drive less, or learn to get along with their neighbors, or give up any convenience unless it becomes either unavailable or INconvenient.
xxp hard agree, map
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:47 (three years ago) link
sorry to be corny but it's been a rough week so high fives everyone haha
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:49 (three years ago) link
precisely, urban planning can’t be done via bootstraps
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:49 (three years ago) link
Everyone should live in massive concrete beehives, take mass transit to and from work, and spend all their free hours thinking blissfully about the good they're doing for The Poor.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:49 (three years ago) link
haha hiiiii
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:50 (three years ago) link
people are allowed to not live in cities,
Wow thanks! You're too kind
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:51 (three years ago) link
granny isn't sedona a city
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:51 (three years ago) link
cars are so awesome. go wherever you want. take anything + anyone with you. blast music. fresh air smacking you in the face. want to buy a pumpkin or a dresser or a surfboard while you're out? toss it in the backseat. driving is so easy it's automatic, you barely have to think about it tbh. complete & total freedom.
― kinder, gentler (sleepingbag), Monday, May 21, 2018 12:36 PM (two years ago) bookmarkflaglink
^^^ single most otm post in the history of this message board
― lumen (esby), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:52 (three years ago) link
bitch please
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:53 (three years ago) link
in orbit I think you're right, but I think you're underselling the problem a bit. Why is driving seen as convenient by Americans for instance? the last usa shithole I lived in was "organized" so that I spent like 15+ minutes driving just about anywhere except Meijer, and there it was like 5 minutes plus then 5 minutes walking through the hellishly large parking lot. it wasn't convenient at all! yes, more so than biking or walking, but still, it was a giant waste of time.
& then, why do American people want such big spaces to live in? yes, policies could say "no residence can be more than x m^2" etc but still, peoples' desires have to change, and policy is only part of that.
― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:54 (three years ago) link
Sedona is not urban. But I live in Cottonwood. In a single family development ( fun fact: the developer died in prison for scamming the original lot buyers)
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:54 (three years ago) link
xp to esby Hahaha sure if the driver is held accountable for none of the effects of their actions, so basically in a constructed fantasy that Americans have been taught is their right as Americans but which actually kills people and the planet at every stage. Taught by auto manufacturers and fossil fuel industries, I'm pretty sure.
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:56 (three years ago) link
What about when all cars are powered by renewable energy
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
I don't care if people "desire" to live in a remote mountain stockade but I do care if all of the rest of society is footing the bill for them to do that. Economic and social pressures will go a long way, I think, to changing what's desirable.
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, May 30, 2020 5:54 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink
there is a very entrenched legal regime that reinforces this and all the people with any real power in these places, their money basically comes from it, specifically property rights and the real estate market. THAT definitely needs to be fucked with.
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, 30 May 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
Building cities around cars instead of PEOPLE will still be wrong and harmful and destructive to healthy communities when cars don't use fossil fuel, although I guess at least air quality wouldn't be affected as much.
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, 30 May 2020 17:00 (three years ago) link
― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, May 30, 2020 4:58 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Saturday, 30 May 2020 17:01 (three years ago) link
Good luck with your plan to have every human live in a city
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Saturday, 30 May 2020 17:01 (three years ago) link
Only god can change people’s desires, but policy can change what they can get.
― silby, Saturday, 30 May 2020 17:01 (three years ago) link