People Who Live In Suburbs: Classy, Icky, or Dudes?

How I break it down to an extent is that driving is a net evil but also because of how big this country is and how spread out ppl are, in almost everywhere that's not a top tier city, driving is necessary. So the best model for remedying it is a harm-reduction one, I think.

More people should live in cities, govt should build/maintain more robust public transit networks and NOT bigger roads and highways, cars should be smaller and more efficient/electric, gas should cost more, people should drive less, stuff we consume should come from nearby and while we're at it we should consume less. Walking & biking should be massively more accessible & safer. Development should center around walkable, human-scale commercial centers with multi-use zoning (see silby, above). Employers shouldn't be incentivized to put their businesses 20 miles out of town in an office park only accessible by a major highway, and developers should be barred from building them. Idk what did I miss?

otm

people are allowed to not live in cities, but should acknowledge that they are doing something bad, for the environment chiefly, but also for poor people.

but coming back to in orbit's post,"how big this country is and how spread out ppl are" describes the usa but the size doesn't necessitate the sprawl. people have chosen to sprawl and it's identified (overseas for example) as "the american lifestyle". but it's a choice to have detached housing with individual gardens. & if you choose to live like that, you're part of a problem.

In orbit massively otm

people are allowed to not live in cities, but should acknowledge that they are doing something bad, for the environment chiefly, but also for poor people.

i am poor

the current pandemic kinda weakens the “more people should live in cities” argument tbh

& you have a car? xp

anyway yeah in orbit is otm/realistic about it

xp yeah that my parents bought for me

i hate it and i hate driving

climate change kinda weakens the "ac & heating are bad for the environment" argument tbh

the current pandemic kinda weakens the “more people should live in cities” argument tbh

― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:35 AM (one minute ago)

Nah I don’t really think so.

it's a choice to have detached housing with individual gardens. & if you choose to live like that, you're part of a problem.

Everyone is part of the problem tho

right, so we should just say fuck it & live in detached housing & drive cars

i'm into hearing more from people like in orbit who want to work toward realistic goals and understand the situation instead of self righteous philosophy professors who moved to france tbr. but i guess that's keeping in spirit with the thread beginning so

I don't hate gardens, per se (though I do hate lawns) but imo there's a difference between "a little big of green space you can manage for yourself" and acres of featureless yard that people use to provide buffers between themselves and their neighbors. I see it all the time in an old house fb group that I follow--everyone complains that houses in towns are "too close" to the neighbors and what they mean is "I can see someone else's house from here/I might have to learn to get along with my neighbors/my complete privacy and sovereignty are not being observed." It's ludicrous and so harmful.

We need a range of options ranging from extremely dense to somewhat less dense. Not everyone wants to live the same way, or can, or should. And we need people who maintain the skills of farming and cultivation and gardening for food and health and ecosystems and natural beauty. But we do need policies that minimize the harm of the range of options, is what I'm saying. I mean, people would naturally choose to live close to things if a) there were pleasant and useful things to live closer to, and b) gas prices actually reflected the indirect costs and harms of its extraction & consumption.

incrementalism is indeed the best way

xp

drive cars? god forbid

Although from watching a lot of "Escape to the Country" I take it that in UK parlance one calls all yards around houses "gardens" when they are actually just...yards?

yeah it's just like... people who are obviously city dwellers launching into the evils of suburbia. i fuckin know brsh! i hate cars! i literally can't breathe some days because of them. trust me there is nothing i want to abolish more.

anyway i live in a trailer park it's pretty dense i have a tiny yard and idk i feel pretty good about it.

people need resources separate from 50 hour a week shit jobs with shit blue waver bosses so they can actually start to organize around this stuff.

100% agree

Ultimately I think every single thing I suggested is a matter of policy, though. We need regulation, and that means healthy governance. People won't just decide to drive less, or learn to get along with their neighbors, or give up any convenience unless it becomes either unavailable or INconvenient.

xxp hard agree, map

sorry to be corny but it's been a rough week so high fives everyone haha

precisely, urban planning can’t be done via bootstraps

Everyone should live in massive concrete beehives, take mass transit to and from work, and spend all their free hours thinking blissfully about the good they're doing for The Poor.

haha hiiiii

people are allowed to not live in cities,

Wow thanks! You're too kind

granny isn't sedona a city

cars are so awesome. go wherever you want. take anything + anyone with you. blast music. fresh air smacking you in the face. want to buy a pumpkin or a dresser or a surfboard while you're out? toss it in the backseat. driving is so easy it's automatic, you barely have to think about it tbh. complete & total freedom.

― kinder, gentler (sleepingbag), Monday, May 21, 2018 12:36 PM (two years ago) bookmarkflaglink

^^^ single most otm post in the history of this message board

bitch please

in orbit I think you're right, but I think you're underselling the problem a bit. Why is driving seen as convenient by Americans for instance? the last usa shithole I lived in was "organized" so that I spent like 15+ minutes driving just about anywhere except Meijer, and there it was like 5 minutes plus then 5 minutes walking through the hellishly large parking lot. it wasn't convenient at all! yes, more so than biking or walking, but still, it was a giant waste of time.

& then, why do American people want such big spaces to live in? yes, policies could say "no residence can be more than x m^2" etc but still, peoples' desires have to change, and policy is only part of that.

Sedona is not urban. But I live in Cottonwood. In a single family development ( fun fact: the developer died in prison for scamming the original lot buyers)

xp to esby Hahaha sure if the driver is held accountable for none of the effects of their actions, so basically in a constructed fantasy that Americans have been taught is their right as Americans but which actually kills people and the planet at every stage. Taught by auto manufacturers and fossil fuel industries, I'm pretty sure.

What about when all cars are powered by renewable energy

I don't care if people "desire" to live in a remote mountain stockade but I do care if all of the rest of society is footing the bill for them to do that. Economic and social pressures will go a long way, I think, to changing what's desirable.

in orbit I think you're right, but I think you're underselling the problem a bit. Why is driving seen as convenient by Americans for instance? the last usa shithole I lived in was "organized" so that I spent like 15+ minutes driving just about anywhere except Meijer, and there it was like 5 minutes plus then 5 minutes walking through the hellishly large parking lot. it wasn't convenient at all! yes, more so than biking or walking, but still, it was a giant waste of time.

& then, why do American people want such big spaces to live in? yes, policies could say "no residence can be more than x m^2" etc but still, peoples' desires have to change, and policy is only part of that.

― Joey Corona (Euler), Saturday, May 30, 2020 5:54 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

there is a very entrenched legal regime that reinforces this and all the people with any real power in these places, their money basically comes from it, specifically property rights and the real estate market. THAT definitely needs to be fucked with.

Building cities around cars instead of PEOPLE will still be wrong and harmful and destructive to healthy communities when cars don't use fossil fuel, although I guess at least air quality wouldn't be affected as much.

there is a very entrenched legal regime that reinforces this and all the people with any real power in these places, their money basically comes from it, specifically property rights and the real estate market. THAT definitely needs to be fucked with.

― crystal-brained yogahead (map), Saturday, May 30, 2020 4:58 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

otm

Good luck with your plan to have every human live in a city

Only god can change people’s desires, but policy can change what they can get.

thanks map, that's otm

"You must live in an environment you hate living in, whereas I actually prefer living in a city so I'm sacrificing nothing. I'm getting exactly what I want, with the added benefit of being able to scold you for getting what you want"

i mean i think you're right euler that it's not actually convenient or desirable to live in suburbs just at a basic level of experience and it's why cities are more desirable right now from a consumer pov. but just looking at where the money is in suburban areas and how that ecosystem is ossified beyond belief, that's what needs to loosen up i think.

xp sorry to be talking past you io. i guess i'm incrementalist about people who are lower on the totem pole in these hierarchies and absolutist when it comes to the people with the money and the power lol.

yes granny dainger, it's just scolding, how dare I suggest that your rights be trampled upon to live as you wish

that seems right, map. until I left the usa I lived only in suburban environments, first as a child who had no choice, then as an adult who somehow lucked into getting a job at all, which were again in those places. and it was horrible! only ever had one car for the five of us, but lived in detached housing, and I took a giant risk in getting away from that. so I get how trapped people can be to keep living like that. but I'm talking about people who are choosing to live like that, "because the schools are better", "because we need the space", and (I know) "because I want a yard for the kids to play in". & all of those make the lives of others worse. & like if you live in some rural place & drive like I dunno 10 miles a week, then I guess it's less bad than it would be otherwise; but is it really sustainable for the planet for people to live like that? & why should tax structures etc set incentives for people to live that way?

In a single family development ( fun fact: the developer died in prison for scamming the original lot buyers)

there is so much of this shit in like inland california / nevada / az

xp to euler

yeah idk people just kind of get trapped in wormholes

xxp to map You're good! Keep going!

I'm not saying any of the problems identified here or the policies suggested to alleviate them are wrong, because they are bad problems and good policies. But as long as 8 billion or more humans inhabit the earth and they all strive to consume like westerners, we are pecking around the edges of the central problem.

map and orbit otm. it’s a pretty simple question of where the balance of power lies between planning boards and property developers. in the uk, american “grid-like” infinite expansion beyond city limits just isn’t on the cards. even getting an extra room stuck onto the back of your house can take months to get approved.

i think small villages are a nice alternative to suburbs. still walkable, but rural pleasures close at hand.

xp like cornel west was saying last night, people in the us have failed to offer material and spiritual nourishment to its people. aimless i think some issues in that area are that people are pressured to think in terms of marketability for all their states of being at all times, there are more and more addictions and compulsions available, also people really like worshipping powerful gods and always have. westerners don't just consume they do it as an act of faith, more options for other magics to believe in should be available and de-stigmatized with like education about cult control lol.