quiddities and agonies of the ruling class - a rolling new york times thread

a normal parent

Um, I graduated undegrad in fall 07. My parents didn't help me with shit, I applied early to one school and got in and that was the end of it.

As in, the normal parent helps their kid with writing the check for the application fee. Not being a ridiculous hovercraft over every detail of their kids' life and schedule and activities.

i think you have a different sense of what "normal" means than nabisco does

Anyone who can make $15,000 over the course of, like, a week is not a "normal parent."

xxxpost

not talking abt all pro counsellors, nabisco, just that dude

also the type of parents who shell out that kind of cash expect results and do not settle for anything less in my experience

yeah i think this is more about loving to spend money on stuff than any question of efficiency. applying to college is not that hard, iirc

I just don't grasp how kids whose families are in class positions to be able to afford these counselors haven't already been given the skills to fill out their own college applications. I can see it being challenging to someone from a poor background or for whom English is a second language, but to an affluent native speaker who presumably went to a "good" school? I mean, if they lack the intelligence and skill to do this on their own, then I question their ability to make their own way in life.

applying to college is not that hard

getting into college, especially the top tier of college, is really hard

yes, exactly. if i was an admissions person i would be looking out for people who have obviously used the help of a paid admissions counselor and put their applications in the shredder xp

i dunno my brother got into harvard w/o one ^_^

(xp)

The whole thing is that they don't make their own way in life.

My college counselor at school told me I shouldn't go to college, and that I should travel in Europe and find a rich sugar-daddy instead, then kill him and run off with his money

im sure your bro is really smart harbs but lets not pretend that hes any more "normal" than the kids who use private admissions counselors to help them with their applications!!

Anyone who can make $15,000 over the course of, like, a week is not a "normal parent."

I think this was the point -- haha thus the outsourcing

I don't recall my parents telling me much about college applications beyond reminding me to get the done -- they were probably busier figuring out the financial stuff for loan and grant applications -- but umm I would consider it a pretty "normal parent" thing to do to read over your kid's essays and give advice, or tell them they're not wearing jeans to the interview, or talk them through figuring out where they have a chance of getting in and what's a "safety school" and so on. I don't think that's abnormal behavior.

in interviewing oxford candidates i like to think i have become pretty good at detecting coached candidates. we make a note of it and it probably ends up being adjusted for (i.e. counting against them), although not in a formal way.

i'm not saying sometimes a little direction and counseling is totally unnecessary but this is retarded. if you can't figure out how to get in without spending $40k, there is no hope for you in life xxp

(They don't make their own ways in their own lives? Fuck, that sentence is fucking me up).

Anyway, yeah. All the kids I knew who went to Harvard? Lower middle-class kids who, like me, thought that using a counselor for the process was incredibly ridiculous. Most of the kids who used the counselor types ended up going to Penn, in the city where they grew up, and now where they still live. As in: they never did anything except rely on what they already knew, thus growing little.

I.e., if you were lucky enough to have parents with college educations who knew a little bit about the process, their advice and "normal parent" help would be the equivalent of, I dunno, a four-day $14k boot camp from an ex-admissions person drilling you on How to Get In

i'm not saying sometimes a little direction and counseling is totally unnecessary but this is retarded. if you can't figure out how to get in without spending $40k, there is no hope for you in life xxp

― blobfish russian (harbl), Monday, July 20, 2009 2:22 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

do u really think this is true of like harvard/yale/princeton?

Oh sure, caek, but it's also totally situational for most families not using these expensive services. A lot of kids I know got no help from their parents, a ot of kids I know got tons of help. I knew my essay and everything was good, I didn't need to show my parents that shit. Especially because my mom was all weepy that I wasn't applying early to an Ivy, but instead 'throwing away my talents' to go to...uh...yeah, that school that I went to and enjoyed most thoroughly.

not caek, sorry, nabisco xpost.

no max i am being hyperbolic but it does make them sound stupid

Never mind that admissions officers say that no outsider can truly predict how a particular applicant might fare. “I guess there are snake oil salesman in every field,” said Amy Gutmann, the president of the University of Pennsylvania, “and they are preying on vulnerable and anxious people.”

i am also deeply skeptical of the *need* to go to harvard/yale/princeton to begin with so that's like half the problem for me

getting into college, especially the top tier of college, is really hard

It depends what kind of student you are. If you don't stand out in any way, then yes. Probably, because you shouldn't be going to a top tier college.

xp nabisco: I had normal parent help that consisted of my mom reading my essay answers and telling me when the applications were due and making me sit at the kitchen table and work on them until they were done. I think I wrote one essay about the annoying way my dad made orange juice.

i remember throwing a tantrum because my mom read my essay without asking X(

getting into college, especially the top tier of college, is really hard

― rip dom passantino 3/5/09 never forget (max), Monday, 20 July 2009 18:18 (9 minutes ago)

But there's no evidence that there's any causative relationship between spending low five figures on a counselor and increasing your chances of getting in. It seems a little like test prep to me -- the "best" people might charge as much per hour as an attorney to tutor your child, but those tutors don't know anything that isn't in a Kaplan course or a $29.95 book for that matter. There are no "secrets."

there are more students who stand out than there are places, so it's hard even for those who are the "right sort", xxp

(i am not saying a counselor is a good use of anyone's money though)

It depends what kind of student you are. If you don't stand out in any way, then yes. Probably, because you shouldn't be going to a top tier college.

i dont think any of this is true! for one thing: a lot of students who stand out in several ways in certain contexts still have a lot of trouble getting into the top tier of colleges! for another: i dont think that only those who "stand out" should go to top tier colleges, and i think a lot of admissions officers agree with me!

Never mind that admissions officers say that no outsider can truly predict how a particular applicant might fare. “I guess there are snake oil salesman in every field,” said Amy Gutmann, the president of the University of Pennsylvania, “and they are preying on vulnerable and anxious people.”

Coming from this woman, that is seriously surprising-- any admissions counselor knows that a kid from a Philly private school with mostly B's (and some scattered A's and C's) is going to go to Penn. They let kids like that in as if the fucking world depended on it.

(A kid from a public school in Philly? Yeah, you gotta get all A's).

haha table I am aware that not everybody gets a lot of parental involvement on college applications, I'm just not sure how this makes it abnormal for those who do! I mean, I wouldn't walk into a house where someone's proofreading their kid's essay and go "omg you FREAKS" and call child protective services

anyway clearly in these "counselor" cases we are talking about a socio-economic sphere that's not the one most of us know -- most everyone I knew as a teenager had parents who just wanted their kid to get into a decent school they could manage to pay for, which is very different from this more competitive and wealthy east-coasty thing, or from parents who feel like they should be using their large sums of money to absolutely maximize their kid's educational turnout, from the private kindergarten on up (and possibly even have parental status-competition about what schools kids get into, right along with the kid competition) -- surely this is the point where, if you have $14k to spare and you think there's any remote chance it'll help your kid do better in the process than he/she otherwise would have, you write the check as an "investment in your child's future." whether that remote chance actually exists is sort of a different story; haha probably depends on how clever you think your kid is to begin with

maybe this is stereotyping but a lot of this has to do with parents ensuring that their statuses will be cemented, and there's a long ass history of rich people spending frivolously to do that

But there's no evidence that there's any causative relationship between spending low five figures on a counselor and increasing your chances of getting in. It seems a little like test prep to me -- the "best" people might charge as much per hour as an attorney to tutor your child, but those tutors don't know anything that isn't in a Kaplan course or a $29.95 book for that matter. There are no "secrets."

― the kid is crying because did sharks died? (Hurting 2), Monday, July 20, 2009 2:34 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well sure, i dont disagree with this; im not defending the practice of college admissions counseling, just the motivations behind it. i wouldnt hire a college admissions counselor for my kid but i understand why people do it.

I mean, I take it for granted that Ivy-type schools contain a fair number of people (non-legacy, even) who are not grand clever stand-outs but have gotten upmarket educations from youth and did reasonably okay at someplace like Exeter and had good test prep for their boards and so on -- i.e., people who didn't like excel their way into a top-tier school but started out on a high tier and just competently kept things rolling up there

most everyone I knew as a teenager had parents who just wanted their kid to get into a decent school they could manage to pay for, which is very different from this more competitive and wealthy east-coasty thing, or from parents who feel like they should be using their large sums of money to absolutely maximize their kid's educational turnout, from the private kindergarten on up

This was my experience as well. I was accepted to a couple of schools that were more "better"/more prestigious than the one I ended up attending, but my parents wanted me to attend a school they could afford without having to take out massive loans.

Lol, more "better"! I guess I could have benefited from an Ivy, I might have improved my proofreading skills.

in general tho i think that if a kid has spared no expense in trying to get into college - and a lot of rich kids that had college admissions counselors worked harder than me and put in a lot more effort doing "community service" and shit - than i see no reason why a parent shouldn't spare no expense to ensure that the kid actually does get in to wherever they want. if you have it then whatever.

btw the fact that i grew up in princeton nj which has the double whammy of being a university town (and therefore one that cares more than average about education, probably?) and a pretty rich town (and therefore one that cares more than average about the status that accompanies an ivy degree, probably?) means that im probably a little more sympathetic to this practice

i dont think that only those who "stand out" should go to top tier colleges, and i think a lot of admissions officers agree with me!

From all the admissions-related stuff I've read - by admissions officers - they are generally looking for students that stand out in some way -- not necessarily the best grades or test scores -- being devoted to a particular subject or activity, having a unique background/experiences and an interesting perspective on them, etc. But maybe that's just my alma mater.

i.e. i grew up at like ground zero for the rich east coast competition thing that nabiscos talking about

xpost

most everyone I knew as a teenager had parents who just wanted their kid to get into a decent school they could manage to pay for,

Most everyone I knew as a teenager who went to college went to a state school or BYU (which is about as cheap as CA State Universities if one's family is Mormon). So, it was pretty much a given that it would be affordable.

xp Max - kids where I grew up competed to go to Cal Poly -- which they considered the "top" school for agribusiness or veterinary medicine.

i've had 2 siblings who were exemplary HS students, great grades & activities & sports etc, and sure they "stood out" enough to get admitted to their schools of choice but uh-oh, not good enough for scholarship monies, off to the USAF academy you go

college admissions is a crapshoot and the more money you have then the freer you are to gamble but let's not kid ourselves here

the high school i graduated from had one of these ppl on staff - like a dude whose whole job was getting the schools graduating seniors into good schools and it was probably helpful and may have helped get me into a better school than i "deserved" to go to since im not particularly smart or unique. like basically nabs point that having someone reading over your essays and doing interview prep and keeping the whole process on lock for u whether its a parent or a paid professional its not necessary but it helps a lot.

also i probably buy into/care about college "prestige" and "tiers" because everyone i know growing up did and also see above re: not that smart but i dont think its stupid to push any edge u can get for your children

elmo otm.

Oh, Max, maybe you can answer a question for me, about something I've always thought but don't know for certain -- part of why I said "east-coasty" up there is that I've always had this sense that for wealthier east-coast kids it's considered somehow, like, shameful or embarrassing to go to school in lots of the rest of the country, like you've been exiled to the Midwest for incompetence or something, even though there are plenty of private schools around offering an education that's pretty comparable to some east-coast private schools. Does that seem right to you? Because I'm pretty sure a whole lot of why parents I knew in Colorado or Michigan or Illinois didn't go nuts about college-application stuff was that, you know, your kid is not applying to Bennington, she will be perfectly fine going to Washington U or Macalester or something. (Or any of a number of state schools, like Michigan, that people have a lot more belief in outside the cluster of old private colleges on the east coast...)

also i probably buy into/care about college "prestige" and "tiers" because everyone i know growing up did and also see above re: not that smart but i dont think its stupid to push any edge u can get for your children

I pretty much picked the schools I applied to based on weather, whether it seemed like there'd be cool things to do in the area, and if the people seemed friendly.

My wife (and a lot of my friends) went to Michigan and there were tons and tons of east coast people there - as you got closer to campus you'd see lots of new cars with New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania plates on them. We always assumed they were kids who didn't get into any Ivy League schools and Michigan was one of the top choices of their second tier places.

i consulted a respected psychic it cost my parents $4,000 (xp)

We always assumed they were kids who didn't get into any Ivy League schools and Michigan was one of the top choices of their second tier places.

I'm pretty sure this is the case.