― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:40 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:40 (nineteen years ago) link
― chris (chris), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:41 (nineteen years ago) link
― Michael White (Hereward), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:44 (nineteen years ago) link
The ice dancing hooligans are a fearsome bunch.
― Michael White (Hereward), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:46 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:50 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:53 (nineteen years ago) link
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:56 (nineteen years ago) link
If you said "there's still far too much of this kind of behaviour in football and it should be stamped out - these attitudes, and the way in which the game deals with it, have to change" I would have agreed with you. Its still unfair to use it as a stick to beat the whole game with, especially as football has done as much, if not more, to counter racism than it has to foster it.
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:02 (nineteen years ago) link
There's something wrong with the English - I'll happily concede we're a bunch of cunts who can't handle drink and every foreign despatch since the Romans has said so. That's a root cause - there's a bellicosity in our culture that feeds off a generalised exceptionalism. Drink briongs it out most, when in truth, there's far more un-exceptioanlism out there. If anything demonstrates the Europeanisation of England, it's football.
― Dave B (daveb), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:07 (nineteen years ago) link
Is it wrong that I burst out laughing? Or that the Swiss fans did too?
I don't know what's wrong or right anymore, me.
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:10 (nineteen years ago) link
Except I don't think these attitudes *can* be stamped out of football, because football *IS* symbolic conflict, it is absolutely irreprepreably tied together with us/them attitudes, tribal groupings, competition and all sorts of other things I am inherently suspicious of.
You can say "oh, let's work on making it *symbolic* hatred and *symbolic* violence" but you cannot take the inherent tribalism and competition and symbolism of violence out of football.
Hence I find it vile.
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:15 (nineteen years ago) link
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:18 (nineteen years ago) link
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:21 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:22 (nineteen years ago) link
I find bands vile, so much competition ;o)
― chris (chris), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:22 (nineteen years ago) link
And surely the violence in Croydon was because in seeing England Play France someone must have come to the conclusion that there must be a this "other" place, France that he was previously unaware of - only knowing Croydon. This spiritual torment of not being aware of this France drove him and those infected with his mind-meme to self-destructive vilence (nice spelling - cheers).
― Pete (Pete), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:23 (nineteen years ago) link
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:24 (nineteen years ago) link
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:25 (nineteen years ago) link
I dislike competative sport, fullstop. It doesn't matter if it's football or tiddlewinks or anything. Maybe that's cause I was raised by hippies, I don't know. That's a part of human and my own nature that I do my best to downplay and avoid, rather than celebrate.
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:26 (nineteen years ago) link
Talking of music, I'm off to see Roger McGuinn tonight. Byrds, eh?
― Mikey G (Mikey G), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:32 (nineteen years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:34 (nineteen years ago) link
I think *all* competative sport is vile, not just football. Football is just the one that happens to interfere directly in my life the most often, and the violence associated therewith gets the most coverage.
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:39 (nineteen years ago) link
― Apostrophe Catastrophe (kate), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:40 (nineteen years ago) link
But the "finding out anyway" is U&K - if someone tries to stamp out competition, ppl always find a way to make things competitive anyway. Apparently it's...oh there's no such thing as human nature is there.....it's....instinctive?
― MarkH (MarkH), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:43 (nineteen years ago) link
there's too much effort put into competing. we'd accomplish / produce more if we put the same effort into collaborating.
if competition is *human* nature then why is the majority of competitive sport so male dominated?
(it's athletics that pisses me off more than team sports - so much effort for nothing.)
― koogs (koogs), Monday, 14 June 2004 16:45 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 14 June 2004 16:51 (nineteen years ago) link
― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 14 June 2004 16:56 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 14 June 2004 16:58 (nineteen years ago) link
(just being devil's advocate Ronan, you understand. I'm on your side really as far as this thread goes at least)
― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 14 June 2004 17:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 14 June 2004 17:02 (nineteen years ago) link
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Monday, 14 June 2004 17:10 (nineteen years ago) link
more men play sport than women as purely statistical thing? but, to generalise hideously in the name of humour, have you seen women at a Primark sale? fierce competition.
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 17:31 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 17:33 (nineteen years ago) link
― stevem (blueski), Monday, 14 June 2004 17:35 (nineteen years ago) link
Having said that, I think people are being a bit disingenuous about Kate's objections. There's a level of aggression and testosterone watching football in stadiums and pubs that I can perfectly well see is intimidating and would not be tolerated by most in other circumstances. Now I can't stop think of Chris shouting "You dirty French cunt" at the television.
― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 14 June 2004 17:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 14 June 2004 18:10 (nineteen years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 14 June 2004 18:11 (nineteen years ago) link
yeah but did you see the tiny little Japanese and Korean parents jumping up and down trying to get their children back from the English bastards who snatched their kids to put on their shoulders?
― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 June 2004 18:18 (nineteen years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 14 June 2004 18:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 14 June 2004 18:22 (nineteen years ago) link
― dog latin (dog latin), Monday, 14 June 2004 18:23 (nineteen years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 14 June 2004 18:25 (nineteen years ago) link
I often think, that as someone who claims not to be at all patriotic, I am a hypocrite for supporting the Irish football/rugby teams so strongly. I do think though at best there's a shared emotional ritual involved, and given not all the players are even Irish it's as much a matter of symbolism as actual patriotism. We want Ireland to win because they're the Irish international football team.
― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 14 June 2004 18:28 (nineteen years ago) link
I guess my patriotism is quite smug.
-- N. (nickdastoo...), September 12th, 2003
From Patriot Day
― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 14 June 2004 18:31 (nineteen years ago) link